Gatwick Express 1984 re-launch

[paul1609]

So it was actually a portion worked service? Interesting, that must've been pain at times

The Arun Valley trains off peak are all still portion worked to this (non covid) day, they now divide at Horsham between a fast portion to Portsmouth/ Southampton and a stopping service to Bognor.
Its not uncommon for the fast section to the coast to leave within 3 mins of arriving at horsham followed by the stopping portion to Bognor 3 mins later.

 

[hexagon789]

The Arun Valley trains off peak are all still portion worked to this (non covid) day, they now divide at Horsham between a fast portion to Portsmouth/ Southampton and a stopping service to Bognor.
Its not uncommon for the fast section to the coast to leave within 3 mins of arriving at horsham followed by the stopping portion to Bognor 3 mins later.

Thanks, I'm aware that there are still splitters on the ex-Southern area it was more the fact that there was a dedicated unit which would join up at Gatwick I found surprising, I assumed that it simply worked through from elsewhere and there was no splitting/joining.

One of the things that fascinates me about the history of many services we now take for granted is that their origins and operation can be somewhat different to how they are now and not simply an evolution of such

 

[Taunton]

So it was actually a portion worked service? Interesting, that must've been pain at times

It actually seemed to work well; the Southern had long had the knack of handling portion emu services, something which seems lost nowadays. When Gatwick opened up the special shuttle used the eight post-war 2-HAL units, which looked like a 4-SUB, and which had been built as replacement for pre-war electric cars destroyed in the war. They started the approach to be attached to the front of the 2-BIL Arun Valley services at Gatwick, and on the return be detached from the back. One of the through platforms at Gatwick had 2-way signalling (unusual then), crossovers, and a shunter on duty to handle the couplings. When these changed over to 4-VEP units, Gatwick had built up quite a bit and a separate normal 4-VEP was used, later modified to the VEG units with luggage space etc, but still 3+2 seating and doors to each bay.

British United Airways, the 1960s principal airline at Gatwick, used to have a check-in upstairs alongside where the Gatwick unit pulled up at the buffers, where you could check in and leave heavy luggage, a porter brought this down a few minutes before departure and wheeled the trolley into the guards van, which was then taken at Gatwick directly to the airline baggage facility.

 

[WesternLancer]

It actually seemed to work well; the Southern had long had the knack of handling portion emu services, something which seems lost nowadays. When Gatwick opened up the special shuttle used the eight post-war 2-HAL units, which looked like a 4-SUB, and which had been built as replacement for pre-war electric cars destroyed in the war. They started the approach to be attached to the front of the 2-BIL Arun Valley services at Gatwick, and on the return be detached from the back. One of the through platforms at Gatwick had 2-way signalling (unusual then), crossovers, and a shunter on duty to handle the couplings. When these changed over to 4-VEP units, Gatwick had built up quite a bit and a separate normal 4-VEP was used, later modified to the VEG units with luggage space etc, but still 3+2 seating and doors to each bay.

British United Airways, the 1960s principal airline at Gatwick, used to have a check-in upstairs alongside where the Gatwick unit pulled up at the buffers, where you could check in and leave heavy luggage, a porter brought this down a few minutes before departure and wheeled the trolley into the guards van, which was then taken at Gatwick directly to the airline baggage facility.

Interesting to read all that Taunton - thanks.

 

[hexagon789]

It actually seemed to work well; the Southern had long had the knack of handling portion emu services, something which seems lost nowadays. When Gatwick opened up the special shuttle used the eight post-war 2-HAL units, which looked like a 4-SUB, and which had been built as replacement for pre-war electric cars destroyed in the war. They started the approach to be attached to the front of the 2-BIL Arun Valley services at Gatwick, and on the return be detached from the back. One of the through platforms at Gatwick had 2-way signalling (unusual then), crossovers, and a shunter on duty to handle the couplings. When these changed over to 4-VEP units, Gatwick had built up quite a bit and a separate normal 4-VEP was used, later modified to the VEG units with luggage space etc, but still 3+2 seating and doors to each bay.

British United Airways, the 1960s principal airline at Gatwick, used to have a check-in upstairs alongside where the Gatwick unit pulled up at the buffers, where you could check in and leave heavy luggage, a porter brought this down a few minutes before departure and wheeled the trolley into the guards van, which was then taken at Gatwick directly to the airline baggage facility.

Thanks for the detail there, interesting to read how it all worked

 

[Helvellyn]

Ref 1st class it may have been thought that easier to sell 1st class tickets to overseas visitors who may have pre determined views of Europe and the quality difference on different types of train between classes and would be default book 1st class tickets (even I recall a big diff in eg Italy in the early 80s between 1st and say non air conditioned standard class travel). Also even some travelers from the continent used to a more 'reasonable' price differential between 1st and 2nd class than is typical in the UK (or has become typical) might have been considered happy to pay for 1st class.

Then you may also have had 1st class Britrail pass holders in the mix.

Back in 1984 although Gatwick was firmly established as a 'charter flight' airport catering for cheaper flights I suspect BR still felt there was a `1st class market' to tap into.

I often book 1st class when I go abroad when I would not in the UK - often as it's a 1 off trip so a special occasion I am prepared to splash out for - often to be able to guarantee more space and a eg potential security benefit - obv in days of the web it is easy via sites like Seat61 to see what you get for your money but back in those days I suspect they felt there was market to tap into maybe.

The market was possibly quite big but it could be that enough passengers were happy to travel in Standard for 30 minutes (air-conditioning, 2+2 seating) rather than pay for First.

Until the very early 1990s a lot of airlines were "Gatwicked" due to UK aviation policy including Delta, Northwest and Continental (all serving the US), Air New Zealand, Cathay Pacific, Canadian Airlines and even Virgin Atlantic. British Airways - which had taken over Gatwick based British Caledonian in 1988 - also had a number of long haul flights it couldn't move to Heathrow due to the Bermuda II treaty with the US. Only a change in the very early 1990s that allowed Virgin access to Heathrow and other carriers slowly moving across changed that.

But BA in the 1990s actually tried to.grow Gatwick as a hub, moving a number of long haul flights from Heathrow and at the height of its dual hub served over 100 destinations from Gatwick. It also had a check-in facility at Victoria long before the one at Paddington when Heathrow Express opened.

 

[WesternLancer]

The market was possibly quite big but it could be that enough passengers were happy to travel in Standard for 30 minutes (air-conditioning, 2+2 seating) rather than pay for First.

Until the very early 1990s a lot of airlines were "Gatwicked" due to UK aviation policy including Delta, Northwest and Continental (all serving the US), Air New Zealand, Cathay Pacific, Canadian Airlines and even Virgin Atlantic. British Airways - which had taken over Gatwick based British Caledonian in 1988 - also had a number of long haul flights it couldn't move to Heathrow due to the Bermuda II treaty with the US. Only a change in the very early 1990s that allowed Virgin access to Heathrow and other carriers slowly moving across changed that.

But BA in the 1990s actually tried to.grow Gatwick as a hub, moving a number of long haul flights from Heathrow and at the height of its dual hub served over 100 destinations from Gatwick. It also had a check-in facility at Victoria long before the one at Paddington when Heathrow Express opened.

Good points ref the airlines there. I'd forgotten and i even used to regularly fly Delta from there to the US in the 80s for family reasons!

 

[30907]

So it was actually a portion worked service? Interesting, that must've been pain at times

Yes, alternating Arun Valley and Brighton routes, serving most stations south of Gatwick. It started back in the 50s using a single 2-HAL and only half hourly. The Southern was used to it.
Sorry, I somehow missed the later posts.

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, alternating Arun Valley and Brighton routes, serving most stations south of Gatwick. It started back in the 50s using a single 2-HAL and only half hourly. The Southern was used to it.
Sorry, I somehow missed the later posts.

Once joined at Gatwick did the train run fast to Victoria or make intermediate stops?

 

[WesternLancer]

Once joined at Gatwick did the train run fast to Victoria or make intermediate stops?

I had a feeling that only when Gat Ex started was it non stop - making me assume that at least in the VEG unit days there were stops at maybe East Croydon and Clapham Jct - but I've not checked timetables so would be interested to know if this is correct - i just recall the Gat-Ex 1984 service going heavy on the publicity about it being non-stop, so assume that was a new aspect.

 

[jfollows]

My recollection is certainly that the Gatwick Express was non-stop to/from Victoria whereas the VEG precursor service never was.

I too used Gatwick a lot in the 1980s and into the 1990s, because I spent a lot of time in Boulder, Colorado, and Continental had a non-stop DC10 service from Gatwick to Denver. Since by then I lived near Portsmouth it was actually a better airport to use than Heathrow would have been, and I generally drove there with a hire car which was a nice cross-country journey.

 

[30907]

I had a feeling that only when Gat Ex started was it non stop - making me assume that at least in the VEG unit days there were stops at maybe East Croydon and Clapham Jct - but I've not checked timetables so would be interested to know if this is correct - i just recall the Gat-Ex 1984 service going heavy on the publicity about it being non-stop, so assume that was a new aspect.

Clapham Jn, East Croydon and Redhill (not sure if that was all or just the Brightons, and the night service didnt). The trains ran via Redhill anyway because they used the Slow line platforms at Gatwick.

 

[hexagon789]

I had a feeling that only when Gat Ex started was it non stop - making me assume that at least in the VEG unit days there were stops at maybe East Croydon and Clapham Jct - but I've not checked timetables so would be interested to know if this is correct - i just recall the Gat-Ex 1984 service going heavy on the publicity about it being non-stop, so assume that was a new aspect.

Thanks, it would be interesting to see how much quicker the new non-stop was over the previous service provision.

 

[seaviewer]

My 1978 timetable tells me the standard schedule to Gatwick was 39 min, with a stop at East Croydon. There were faster trains, but not available to Gatwick passengers. By 1988, GeX had a table to itself, with a non-stop schedule of 30 min.

 

[big all]

i was at Coulson north 76-late 79 and we had a couple off turns where we finished or started with a Gatwick to vic or vic to Gatwick we also had a couple round trips at weekends and down the quarry maybe Croydon and or Clapham ??
Exact details very vague but made a nice change for a mainly suburban depot to avoid redhill

 

[WesternLancer]

My 1978 timetable tells me the standard schedule to Gatwick was 39 min, with a stop at East Croydon. There were faster trains, but not available to Gatwick passengers. By 1988, GeX had a table to itself, with a non-stop schedule of 30 min.

Thanks - helpful info.

 

[Helvellyn]

Were any services cut to allow the Gatwick Express service to start, particularly in the peaks? Four trains per hour is quite a chunk of capacity.

 

[Rick1984]

Was the GLV powered just to give the formation a bit more oomph?
And I take it the coaches were classed as multiple units as they were permanently formed in sets?

 

[big all]

Was the GLV powered just to give the formation a bit more oomph?
And I take it the coaches were classed as multiple units as they were permanently formed in sets?

yes an ex 2hap motor coach so 500hp also supplied the train heat [i think ??]

 

[hexagon789]

Was the GLV powered just to give the formation a bit more oomph?
And I take it the coaches were classed as multiple units as they were permanently formed in sets?

Yes the GLV (Class 489) retained two 250hp motors, so that plus the 1,420 of the 73 gave a total 1,920hp.

The coaches were classified 488; 488/2 for the two-car, /3 for the three-car.

 

[WesternLancer]

Were any services cut to allow the Gatwick Express service to start, particularly in the peaks? Four trains per hour is quite a chunk of capacity.

Can't recall but not that I remember (I think my mum, who was a daily Brighton line commuter at the time, would have moaned if that had been the case - but it may have affected other services eg outer london suburban? that I would not have been aware of). Remember services like Eastbourne - Lewes - London were then I think hourly - not half hourly like they became in the 1990s etc, so presumably there was capacity available.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Can't recall but not that I remember (I think my mum, who was a daily Brighton line commuter at the time, would have moaned if that had been the case - but it may have affected other services eg outer london suburban? that I would not have been aware of). Remember services like Eastbourne - Lewes - London were then I think hourly - not half hourly like they became in the 1990s etc, so presumably there was capacity available.

There was a significant recast of London - South Coast services on the Central Division in /around 1984 , probably the biggest structural change since 1933 and electrification / 1967 , which diverted faster services to serve the growing areas of Gatwick and Croydon - (and away from Horsham - Epsom - London via Sutton) , - this comprehensive change , not all of which was well received by longer standing passengers probably cleared space for an enhanced stand alone GATEX. All written up in Modern Railways articles of that era.

 

[Bald Rick]

There was a significant recast of London - South Coast services on the Central Division in /around 1984 , probably the biggest structural change since 1933 and electrification / 1967 , which diverted faster services to serve the growing areas of Gatwick and Croydon - (and away from Horsham - Epsom - London via Sutton) , - this comprehensive change , not all of which was well received by longer standing passengers probably cleared space for an enhanced stand alone GATEX. All written up in Modern Railways articles of that era.

The complete recast of the Brighton Line was in May 1978, and that removed the hourly Arun Valley service via Epsom. (Modern Railways, December 1977).

Further recast May 1984, GatEx introduced, Brighton fasts had 4minutes journey time improvement, and the 4 trains an hour Vic to Three Bridges semi fast service was halved. Loads of other changes too. (Modern Railways, May 1984j

 

[WesternLancer]

There was a significant recast of London - South Coast services on the Central Division in /around 1984 , probably the biggest structural change since 1933 and electrification / 1967 , which diverted faster services to serve the growing areas of Gatwick and Croydon - (and away from Horsham - Epsom - London via Sutton) , - this comprehensive change , not all of which was well received by longer standing passengers probably cleared space for an enhanced stand alone GATEX. All written up in Modern Railways articles of that era.

Thanks - was this related to something IIRC was called 'Operation New Look' and also involved closure of Coulsdon North station and a lot of re-signalling work? Around about 1983ish.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks - was this related to something IIRC was called 'Operation New Look' and also involved closure of Coulsdon North station and a lot of re-signalling work? Around about 1983ish.

Three Bridges resignalling triggered the closure of Coulsdon North, 1983/4. Some of this was indeed publicised as Operation New Look.

Slightly off topic, but the Three Bridges and Victoria resignalling schemes resulted in the closure of 70 (seventy) signalboxes.

 

[Ianno87]

Thanks - was this related to something IIRC was called 'Operation New Look' and also involved closure of Coulsdon North station and a lot of re-signalling work? Around about 1983ish.

Same thing as the "Croydon Earthquake"?

 

[Bald Rick]

Same thing as the "Croydon Earthquake"?

That was the rebuilding of Windmill bridge / East Croydon. (Check your email!)

 

[WesternLancer]

Three Bridges resignalling triggered the closure of Coulsdon North, 1983/4. Some of this was indeed publicised as Operation New Look.

Slightly off topic, but the Three Bridges and Victoria resignalling schemes resulted in the closure of 70 (seventy) signalboxes.

Thanks

 

[ChiefPlanner]

My principal recollection of the 4-VEG on the service was a couple boarding at Gatwick one evening, suitcases plus an enormous stuffed toy donkey. Older hands here may recall these had a heyday in Spanish resorts in the 1970s-80s, they were about 3 feet high/long and sufficiently popular that they were all specially taken out to the aircraft together on their own trailer at the Spanish airport. People laughed at them in Spain, but by the time, in a full train, we had rattled through rainy Purley and Croydon any humour had worn decidedly thin.

IN the days of "going to Spain" was an affordable and much enjoyed holiday , the pre excitement of those going was very visible - staff on the crappy MML DMU service to Luton were probably sick of being told "we are going to Spain" by the passengers , and ever more so on the return when they were sunburned , probably suffering from dehydration and possibly the result of drinking the water , and of course the mandatory donkey......Happy , simpler times.

As a 6th former we went all the way from Neath to Gatwick for Lloret de Mar. £30 a week , and yes we used the 4-VEG , very interesting and not just the journey. We learned a lot.

 

[Smitham]

A bit of a side note on the Gatwick Express service: I am sure BA passengers could check in their luggage at Victoria before getting on the train?