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Gatwick Express - Private Eye Article

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hairyhandedfool

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I don't disagree - a ticket is a ticket. However, if one purchases a "Southern Only" ticket from Southern's website which proudly displays Gatwick Express on the Southern Route Map - it is reasonable to expect this ticket to be valid on the Gatwick Express service "operated by Southern"....

'Reasonable' is open to interpretation. Is it not reasonable to read a contract before agreeing to it? I could say plenty of things about reasonableness, but whatever I say it does not change the fact that the NRCoC is part of the contract and many other things are not.

....As others have said you're taking a trading name listing as a "company name". I'd really love to see Southern try and make that hold up in court:
Your honour - we are asking for the prosecution of x for fare dodging. An agent of the plaintiff, Southern Railway Ltd., found the defendant on board one of their services running under the Gatwick Express brand in possession of a ticket marked as valid on "Southern Only". Clearly they are in breach of the Railway Act, as they were not travelling on Southern operated service but a Gatwick Express service (which is operated by Southern).

I'm not taking a trading name listing as a "company name". The NRCoC says that if there is a restriction to or prohibition from the services of a particular train company it needs to be shown on the ticket. The NRCoC defines a train company with that list in Appendix C, I haven't changed anything to suit what I am saying. I haven't resorted to letters or email correspondence from the DfT (who are regularly criticised by certain forum members, on this very forum, on a regular basis, when it suits them) which form no part of the contract that the passenger agrees to when they buy a ticket.
 
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WillPS

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It's entirely possible to dislike or slate an organisation but also look to them for official guidance; particularly when the organisation is a government department!

As has been said the DfT (publicly, at least) disagree with your reading of the NRCoC and Southern refuse to try and enforce it as I'm sure they understand that if it were to go to court they'd be thrown out and the charade would have to end. If your argument were as watertight as you imply there is no way they'd be avoiding the issue.
 

hairyhandedfool

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You absolutely right, it is entirely possible to slate an organisation and look to them for guidance, but that isn't exactly what I meant, I should learn to be clearer.

Believe what you want to believe, it makes no difference to me. The contract is there to see, it is approved by the DfT so it doesn't matter what DfT say now, they agreed to what is written in the NRCoC.

One final thought, have you seen a copy of the December 2009 NRCoC recently? Makes for interesting reading.
 

ralphchadkirk

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I have just recieved a reply to my FOI request to the DfT from Peter Lepper.

Questions:
(a) Under the Conditions of Carriage does the DfT (for the purposes of railway ticketing only) consider Southern and Gatwick Express to be seperate companies?
(b) From the above, are Southern Trains acting correctly in not allowing Southern Only tickets on Gatwick Express services?
(c) Are Southern Railway Ltd acting legally in enforcing these restrictions?

The letter is attached. It states that the DfTs opinion is that Southern are acting legally.
5c28fe51-8faa-e5d1.jpg




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dvboy

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Interesting.

I am still waiting a response from Southern regarding my request for a refund of the "Southern Supp" to use a Gatwick Express branded train on a Southern Only ticket.
 

DaveNewcastle

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I simply cannot agree with the concept of an entity that is not a Company is a Company for ticketing purposes. Whether they are listed separately in the Appendix is not the deciding factor; whether they are 'Companies' or not in the proper use of the word is a matter of fact. They're not.

As I've mentioned repeatedly, it is probably more help to look at which entities have entered into a contract with RSP Ltd for the purposes of receiving revenue from ticket sales (where they are called 'Operators' and not 'Companies'). There is only the one entity there for these services: Southern Railway.
If there's not contract between a Gatwick Express and RSP Ltd then there'd better not be any tickets being sold for Gatwick Express either.

That letter from the Department seems to be a classic result of post-rationalisation, and it gives the answer that the Department would want to have given. Lets be charitable and say they they are under a misapprehension.

The fact is, that a Company is a Company; a Company is not a brand-name, a timetabled passenger train service, an office or a dandelion.
 

Deerfold

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The fact is, that a Company is a Company; a Company is not a brand-name, a timetabled passenger train service, an office or a dandelion.

I think this is the first time I've snorted (in a good way) when reading these forums. Perhaps should not do it at work... :lol:
 

Greenback

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There is nothing in the reply that persuades me to alte rmy opinion that the arrangements made to transfer GatEX to Southern were not thought through, and that the DfT are now trying to desperately to convince everyone that they know what they are doing. Unfortunately,. I don't think they are doing a very good job of it.
 

Tom C

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At which point he got flustered and said that as Gatwick Express tickets cost a lot more than Southern then Southern ones weren't valid and with a Southern ticket I would get a Penalty Fare (also incorrect).

I would be very careful with this!!!!

Southern have recently given an instruction to its inspectors to issue Penalty Fares to passengers using FCC Only tickets on its trains.

If they are willing to do this then I would not bargain on the option of a PF on Southern Onlys coming to the boil.

I for one have queried this strongly as I see it as a breach of the Penalty Fare rules and the NrCOC however it would appear that Southern doesn't care about rules!
 

jon0844

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That letter doesn't confirm anything, yet will likely be used by Southern as 'cast iron proof'.

It does say it can see how Southern may wish to restrict GatEx, in which case it needs to make that clear on the ticket (i.e. NOT GATEX) but there's no room.

It then ends with 'out interpretation' which is pointless!

To be honest, nothing has changed and the DfT has been totally useless - by not helping support either argument.
 

yorkie

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I think we have sufficient ammunition to contact MPs about this. We need to take it up a level.

Anyone know how to get Norman Baker to respond to emails instead of ignoring them, by the way?

And if anyone has any good contacts in the media, I'd be interested to hear.
 

yorkie

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Well, the DfT are also telling porkies, by telling some respondents that Gatwick Express is a Company, and others that it isn't. They were asked specifically for the purposes of NRCoC Condition 10 a while back so the argument that their answer can vary depending on the question doesn't wash (and is absurd).

Roll your eyes all you like, if you support the DfT and Southern then that is your choice but we can all make up our own minds on that.
 

Tom C

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FCC Only is irrelevant to this debate. No one is arguing that FCC and Southern are the same company.

For a self appointed "Fares Advisor" this is a most interesting comment.

Earlier on in this thread a member of this forum received a reply from Southern informing him that the use of a Southern Only ticket could render him/her liable to a Penalty Fare.

If you read the relevant rules you perhaps will understand that the incorrect use of a TOC specific ticket should not render a passenger liable to a Penalty Fare.

Southern have started issuing Penalty Fares to passengers holding TOC specfic tickets.

Many members of this forum are accusing Southern of not adhering to the relevant rules.

My point was a polite warning to say that if they have started this on FCC only tickets and have sent documents to passengers stating that the use of Southern Only tickets on the Gatwick Express could mean the issue of a Penalty Fare and not the issue of a new ticket.

I think that is far from irrelevant.
 

bb21

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For a self appointed "Fares Advisor" this is a most interesting comment.

Earlier on in this thread a member of this forum received a reply from Southern informing him that the use of a Southern Only ticket could render him/her liable to a Penalty Fare.

If you read the relevant rules you perhaps will understand that the incorrect use of a TOC specific ticket should not render a passenger liable to a Penalty Fare.

Southern have started issuing Penalty Fares to passengers holding TOC specfic tickets.

Many members of this forum are accusing Southern of not adhering to the relevant rules.

My point was a polite warning to say that if they have started this on FCC only tickets and have sent documents to passengers stating that the use of Southern Only tickets on the Gatwick Express could mean the issue of a Penalty Fare and not the issue of a new ticket.

I think that is far from irrelevant.

Fair enough. I understood your earlier comment as an endorsement of such actions. I misunderstood.
 

jon0844

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That is an interesting comment.

Much as I hate the 'underdog' personal injury advert on TV, as long as Southern sticks to its story (right or wrong) and the DfT tries to be helpful by not actually wanting to give a definitive answer, most people would figure it's not worth the hassle of using a Southern Only ticket on a Gatwick Express service.

That's all Southern really wants. They'd hate for the media (even if it was just a local paper) to get everyone trying, as that might just force the DfT to commit to an answer - and run the risk of being embarrassed if they gave the 'wrong' answer should it be taken further.

I think for now the situation is that Southern will not cave in, but won't take action against anyone that sticks to their guns. That will be a very small number of people, which probably won't hurt them much at all. I'd not be surprised for Southern to actually tell a few people to keep quiet and they'll turn a blind eye to things (thus still not actually admitting anything).
 

Clip

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Much as I hate the 'underdog' personal injury advert on TV, as long as Southern sticks to its story (right or wrong) and the DfT tries to be helpful by not actually wanting to give a definitive answer, most people would figure it's not worth the hassle of using a Southern Only ticket on a Gatwick Express service.

That's all Southern really wants. They'd hate for the media (even if it was just a local paper) to get everyone trying, as that might just force the DfT to commit to an answer - and run the risk of being embarrassed if they gave the 'wrong' answer should it be taken further.

I think for now the situation is that Southern will not cave in, but won't take action against anyone that sticks to their guns. That will be a very small number of people, which probably won't hurt them much at all. I'd not be surprised for Southern to actually tell a few people to keep quiet and they'll turn a blind eye to things (thus still not actually admitting anything).

Well someone should get onto that awful programme that calls itself 'Rip off Britain' about this and give it the coverage it deserves.
 

Clip

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Would the people working for that programme understand the issue? I mean, it's hard for most people here and in Southern to understand ;)

Nah but they seem to get a lot of stuff wrong on it anyway so it would be a laugh.
 

jon0844

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It's probably not a story for the mass media but might interest local papers that get to run a story that's more interesting than a cat stuck up a tree.

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bb21

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Would Watchdog be interested, especially if Southern are giving out PFs to people incorrectly?
 

Clip

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Nothing is better then a cat that is stuck up a tree!! Unless said cat owns the tree but classes it as a different entity tree to which it can annoy.
 

OwlMan

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According to the DfT there is an exception for Southern to charge different fares on Gatwick Express.

The Rail fares & Ticketing review P 102 (Annex A - How Fares & Ticketing Regulation works

18. With two exceptions (Southeastern on its high speed
services, and Southern on the Gatwick Express), a lead operator
cannot generally charge different prices for its own services, even
where those services vary in quality. For example, a lead operator
that operates an express and a stopping service over the same
route cannot charge a premium for the express service.
 

jon0844

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And why is there an exception for HS1 and GatEx? What's to stop other operators seeking a similar exceptional that makes that clause pointless?

I do think this helps confirm my belief that the DfT cocked up and is trying hard to help Southern out after effectively stitching them up.

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