Gatwick Express services

[bnm]

So what is the answer? The current set-up is the worst of all worlds. Commuters and air passengers don't mix. The transport needs of both are very different.

It must be particularly disheartening for arriving, tired, red-eyed overnight air passengers to get to the rail station in the AM and discover what they thought was a dedicated service that they may already have booked tickets for, is actually full of commuters from Brighton, Heywards Heath etc. Commuters, in many cases with heavily discounted season tickets.

Doubly disheartening to discover the train provided is not designed for their needs, despite the premium they've paid.

The DfT and Southern have seriously fupped up Gatwick Express. The airport's owners are right to be angry.

 

[Minstral25]

The answer if you ask 99% of the users on the BML is to scrap the Gatwick Express.

As I said before I have thought the best answer for a while is to make the Gatwick Express a stopping service (ECR and CLJ), so it starts empty at Gatwick and fills up closer to London. This means commuters aren't filling the train at Gatwick so passengers can get on in quite a relaxed manner.

Obviously this might create a problem at Victoria as commuters get on before the Airport passengers.

A way round this may to have several of the coaches nearest London (2 maybe 3) as "Airport First Class" - where airport passengers may sit for a premium and get the special service (papers, coffees and croissants perhaps) including the extra on-board staff speaking in several languages etc..

Normal first class passengers should also be able to use these carriages but no standing should be allowed unless you have a first class ticket to keep the riff raff passengers out.

I would very much doubt there are many first class passengers boarding Victoria trains at ECR or CLJ as the benefit of the extra cost would be so small.

 

[bnm]

The answer if you ask 99% of the users on the BML is to scrap the Gatwick Express.

And the answer if you ask the users of the airport?

Dedicated carriages may be an answer. But not on the 442s. They are wrong for both commuters and air passengers.

 

[tsr]

I would very much doubt there are many first class passengers boarding Victoria trains at ECR or CLJ as the benefit of the extra cost would be so small.

I saw someone use First Class between East Croydon and Coulsdon South today... and he had his ticket checked without incident.

 

[tbtc]

So what is the answer? The current set-up is the worst of all worlds. Commuters and air passengers don't mix. The transport needs of both are very different.

It must be particularly disheartening for arriving, tired, red-eyed overnight air passengers to get to the rail station in the AM and discover what they thought was a dedicated service that they may already have booked tickets for, is actually full of commuters from Brighton, Heywards Heath etc. Commuters, in many cases with heavily discounted season tickets.

Doubly disheartening to discover the train provided is not designed for their needs, despite the premium they've paid.

The DfT and Southern have seriously fupped up Gatwick Express. The airport's owners are right to be angry.

As I keep saying in this thread, plenty of other airports in the UK don't have a dedicated train service (many lack even a station, including busy airports like LeedsBradford, Edinburgh and Glasgow).

I don't know why people are so obsessed about Gatwick passengers deserving their own special train when airports like Luton, Manchester and Birmingham seem to cope mixing airport travellers in with normal passengers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As I said before I have though the best answer for a while is to make the Gatwick Express a stopping service (ECR and CLJ), so it starts empty at Gatwick and fills up closer to London. This means commuters aren't filling the train at Gatwick so passengers can get on in quite a relaxed manner

A bit like the way that the Stansted Express has been slowed down slightly (its certainly not non-stop) to take some of the pressure off Cambridge trains.

 

[bnm]

As I keep saying in this thread, plenty of other airports in the UK don't have a dedicated train service (many lack even a station, including busy airports like LeedsBradford, Edinburgh and Glasgow).

Those three airports have less passengers combined than Gatwick.

33 million passengers travelled to/from Gatwick Airport in 2011. I think that deserves a dedicated rail service. How that is achieved though needs work. I don't pretend to have the answer, although dedicated carriages may be a goer. Portion working probably isn't feasible. But Gatwick's air passengers should not be crammed into busy commuter services.

 

[Minstral25]

And the answer if you ask the users of the airport?

Dedicated carriages may be an answer. But not on the 442s. They are wrong for both commuters and air passengers.

Judging by the numbers of them on my commuter train, they don't really care that much.

That's the fundamental problem, most Gatwick passengers are leisure passengers and they don't want to pay a fortune to go to Victoria (as often they go elsewhere in London) - hence 90% of Gatwick Express services could be a single carriage, except the few rush hour services and a few early morning trains which fill up with businessmen.

 

[tbtc]

Those three airports have less passengers combined than Gatwick.

33 million passengers travelled to/from Gatwick Airport in 2011. I think that deserves a dedicated rail service. How that is achieved though needs work. I don't pretend to have the answer, although dedicated carriages may be a goer. Portion working probably isn't feasible. But Gatwick's air passengers should not be crammed into busy commuter services.

Manchester Airport's nineteen million arrival/ departures seem to cope having to share "normal" trains though. Same with the ten million at Luton or the nine million at Birmingham, sharing trains with regular travellers.

 

[jopsuk]

Manchester is an odd one, having "through" services despite being on a stub branch like Heathrow and Stansted- though Stansted's "express" trains are also general-use commuter trains

 

[tsr]

Judging by the numbers of them on my commuter train, they don't really care that much.

A high number of passengers who I speak to about 442s are dissatisfied, and I believe Southern have received a good number of commuter complaints. The main points are, in case you hadn't guessed:
- Perceived and actual unreliability
- 10-car as opposed to 12-car maximum length
- Unsuitable doors
- Insufficient wheelchair accommodation
- Uncomfortable legroom/seating

People do notice that they are given substandard trains!

 

[Southern]

The station layout at Gatwick is a problem, with passengers coming onto the platforms right in centre and going for the first doors they see. Not a lot can be done about that, aside from either building new entry/exit points or having staff/announcements to try and get people spreading out. The latter may be used already, not sure myself as I don't use Gatwick that often.

The idea of having dedicated carriages is interesting...if they were the the first few closest to the entry/exit point...then again, how busy are 442's arriving from Brighton in the morning?

 

[RobShipway]

The station layout at Gatwick is a problem, with passengers coming onto the platforms right in centre and going for the first doors they see. Not a lot can be done about that, aside from either building new entry/exit points or having staff/announcements to try and get people spreading out. The latter may be used already, not sure myself as I don't use Gatwick that often.

The idea of having dedicated carriages is interesting...if they were the the first few closest to the entry/exit point...then again, how busy are 442's arriving from Brighton in the morning?

The station layout at Gatwick is only a problem due to the Class 442's as the passengers have to go a longer distance to board the train, which is why I think that the 442's should be kept to doing the Express service of Brighton, East Croydon to Victoria. Then use the class 377 units that where doing the Express service to do both the Brighton, Gatwick to London Victoria which would be 12 coaches, and have four 8 coach 377's doing the Gatwick - Victoria service stopping at East Croydon and Clapham Junction on route.

I also think that you need to bring back the XC services from Brighton to Manchester and also the service to Edingburgh. However, this can only be done when the government agrees to BML2 which in my view should have some commuter services, but mostly be used for the express service which would then make the paths through Gatwick easier.

 

[ushawk]

The idea of having dedicated carriages is interesting...if they were the the first few closest to the entry/exit point...then again, how busy are 442's arriving from Brighton in the morning?

Busy, but not full and standing.

Gatwick does need a "dedicated" service because of the passenger numbers, but people are put off using the GatEx because of the price, it isnt worth paying a much higher price for a train 5 minutes faster than a normal service.

It should just be absorbed into the Southern franchise and ran as a non-stop Gatwick - London service with no premium fares, that would increase Gatwick passengers to use this train to it would take some pressure off the normal services.

 

[LE Greys]

Busy, but not full and standing.

Gatwick does need a "dedicated" service because of the passenger numbers, but people are put off using the GatEx because of the price, it isnt worth paying a much higher price for a train 5 minutes faster than a normal service.

It should just be absorbed into the Southern franchise and ran as a non-stop Gatwick - London service with no premium fares, that would increase Gatwick passengers to use this train to it would take some pressure off the normal services.

You mean as it was when BR started it?

Surely not, that's too sensible.

 

[David Goddard]

I also think that you need to bring back the XC services from Brighton to Manchester and also the service to Edingburgh. However, this can only be done when the government agrees to BML2 which in my view should have some commuter services, but mostly be used for the express service which would then make the paths through Gatwick easier.

I have long thought that the hourly XC Reading terminators (ex Newcastle) should be extended through to Redhill, then alternately to Gatwick Airport (Brighton at start and end of day) or Ashford International (supported by additional Eurostar stops to connect with them).
Yes this will need more sets to achieve, and couldnt be done tomorrow, but once the grand cascade comes along it could be more achievable one day.

 

[Skimble19]

Having read the article in RAIL one thing struck me: if Gatwick are so desperate for a nice new dedicated fleet of trains to run direct services to their airport, then perhaps they should consider putting at least some money forward for it?

 

[Minstral25]

I have long thought that the hourly XC Reading terminators (ex Newcastle) should be extended through to Redhill, then alternately to Gatwick Airport (Brighton at start and end of day) or Ashford International (supported by additional Eurostar stops to connect with them).
Yes this will need more sets to achieve, and couldnt be done tomorrow, but once the grand cascade comes along it could be more achievable one day.

I think that is just a forum favourite - when "Operation Princess" first started there was hardly any passengers on the trains south of Reading. I used to often time my journeys so I could try out Voyagers (Made a change from the local stock) and often had a carriage to myself.

So from experience I don't think the Demand exists
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Having read the article in RAIL one thing struck me: if Gatwick are so desperate for a nice new dedicated fleet of trains to run direct services to their airport, then perhaps they should consider putting at least some money forward for it?

I'd like to know how many people actually use Gatwick trains from the Airport to get to Victoria. My experience indicates that Clapham Junction and London Bridge/Thameslink are busier with travellers than Victoria

 

[LE Greys]

I'd like to know how many people actually use Gatwick trains from the Airport to get to Victoria. My experience indicates that Clapham Junction and London Bridge/Thameslink are busier with travellers than Gatwick

The original assumption was that Victoria Coach Station was more important, and that Victoria is closer to the West End (where all the expensive hotels are). However, that goes back to when BEA built their terminal there, perhaps to before when Croydon was London's major airport and Imperial Airways had a terminal near Victoria. It might be necessary to reassess traffic conditions, especially now that St Pancras Thameslink is open.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think that is just a forum favourite - when "Operation Princess" first started there was hardly any passengers on the trains south of Reading. I used to often time my journeys so I could try out Voyagers (Made a change from the local stock) and often had a carriage to myself.

So from experience I don't think the Demand exists.

...and as explained in any number of strategy documents, the priority for XC's finite amount of rolling stock is to use it where the demand is greatest, ie across Birmingham.

There is recent evidence that if stock and paths were available more XC Reading terminators would be extended towards Southampton anyway. As XC extensions to Gatwick or Brighton are highly unlikely to make a return, I'd suggest people just get over it.

 

[LE Greys]

...and as explained in any number of strategy documents, the priority for XC's finite amount of rolling stock is to use it where the demand is greatest, ie across Birmingham.

There is recent evidence that if stock and paths were available more XC Reading terminators would be extended towards Southampton anyway. As XC extensions to Gatwick or Brighton are highly unlikely to make a return, I'd suggest people just get over it.

There's always the Heathrow question, as came up in the 'Western Access' thread several times. It might be partially relevant to the Gatwick debate, since access through London from an airport directly south from there makes sense, but access to one west of there when a considerable number of passengers are arriving from the west or north-west is a different case. The loss of between 30 or 60 minutes, plus the difficulty of using the bus link with heavy luggage, makes a considerable difference.

But I do agree that access to Gatwick without some other reason to extend services that far is a bit pointless if nobody is going to use it. Whether it was a failure of advertising or a genuine market failure is up for debate, but the core XC services were over-stretched anyway.

 

[RobShipway]

Having used the forerunner of XC in BR days when trains ran from Brighton to Manchester etc..., I would say that the failure was in the marketing. Admittedly, if you did a survey of most people travelling from Brighton they would probably say they are travelling to London and maybe there is not many people that travel from Brighton to Bedford all the way through London on the Thameslink trains, but if there is that shows that there is a demand there for people to travel across London without the need to change to the Underground with as mentioned before heavy luggage to get to the likes of Euston, St Pancras and Kings Cross to continue to travel northwards.

Some years ago I know said that the Thameslink services where pointless, however with good marketing it succeeded. If you took Thameslink services away from people of Sussex today, I think there reaction would be that you are mad as those services are required. Which was the same reaction of people whne they found out that they would be loosing the XC services from Brighton, but by then it was too late that people realised what they were going to miss.

 

[LE Greys]

Having used the forerunner of XC in BR days when trains ran from Brighton to Manchester etc..., I would say that the failure was in the marketing. Admittedly, if you did a survey of most people travelling from Brighton they would probably say they are travelling to London and maybe there is not many people that travel from Brighton to Bedford all the way through London on the Thameslink trains, but if there is that shows that there is a demand there for people to travel across London without the need to change to the Underground with as mentioned before heavy luggage to get to the likes of Euston, St Pancras and Kings Cross to continue to travel northwards.

Some years ago I know said that the Thameslink services where pointless, however with good marketing it succeeded. If you took Thameslink services away from people of Sussex today, I think there reaction would be that you are mad as those services are required. Which was the same reaction of people whne they found out that they would be loosing the XC services from Brighton, but by then it was too late that people realised what they were going to miss.

Didn't Thameslink start as a means to improve stock utilisation? Presumably, rather than having two services waiting in platforms on opposite sides of London, they decided to combine them. They would still have to wait at Luton or Bedford, but this saved a lot of sitting around and provided easier access to the City, although it did kill Holborn Viaduct (although that might have counted as a cost saving as well).

 

[tsr]

Didn't Thameslink start as a means to improve stock utilisation? Presumably, rather than having two services waiting in platforms on opposite sides of London, they decided to combine them. They would still have to wait at Luton or Bedford, but this saved a lot of sitting around and provided easier access to the City, although it did kill Holborn Viaduct (although that might have counted as a cost saving as well).

By this logic, one would operate a service such as Rugby to Ashford International via the WLL, BML, Redhill and Tonbridge, rather than having separate trains and services for people to use between Rugby and Milton Keynes Central, MKC and East Croydon, East Croydon and Tonbridge and Tonbridge and Ashford International.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Didn't Thameslink start as a means to improve stock utilisation? Presumably, rather than having two services waiting in platforms on opposite sides of London, they decided to combine them. They would still have to wait at Luton or Bedford, but this saved a lot of sitting around and provided easier access to the City, although it did kill Holborn Viaduct (although that might have counted as a cost saving as well).

No, it was planned from the outset to be a cross-London service. The original service was:
Bedford - Brighton - Bedford.
Luton - Gatwick - Luton.
I can't remember what the South Easterns were, I know it involved Sevenoaks and Tonbridge.
Driver's route knowledge over the South Central was a bit peculiar in that Bedford drivers signed to Brighton but St. Pancras drivers only signed as far as Gatwick - but they refused to sign the sidings.

 

[yorksrob]

I can't remember what the South Easterns were, I know it involved Sevenoaks and Tonbridge.

I believe it just went via the Catford Loop to Sevenoaks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Having read the article in RAIL one thing struck me: if Gatwick are so desperate for a nice new dedicated fleet of trains to run direct services to their airport, then perhaps they should consider putting at least some money forward for it?

It does seem a bit much the Airport Authorities complaining about the ambience and age of stock for a service which is relatively short and which people are unlikely to use that regularly.

The most valid criticism of the lovely 442's is that the doors are in the wrong place and too narrow. To that I say, why not put a first class saloon and a toilet in a few of the 455's and use those for a dedicated airport service. Leave the 442's to the commuters !

 

[tbtc]

It does seem a bit much the Airport Authorities complaining about the ambience and age of stock for a service which is relatively short and which people are unlikely to use that regularly.

The most valid criticism of the lovely 442's is that the doors are in the wrong place and too narrow. To that I say, why not put a first class saloon and a toilet in a few of the 455's and use those for a dedicated airport service. Leave the 442's to the commuters !

Regardless of the onboard ambience, I really don't think there's space for a dedicated Airport service amongst all of the other services passing through East Croydon - that's the most important thing.

Having several services from Gatwick to London each hour is fine, but we don't have the luxury of space for a separate service - these need to be mixed with West Coastway/ East Coastway/ Brighton/ East Croydon (etc) passengers.

 

[yorksrob]

Regardless of the onboard ambience, I really don't think there's space for a dedicated Airport service amongst all of the other services passing through East Croydon - that's the most important thing.

Having several services from Gatwick to London each hour is fine, but we don't have the luxury of space for a separate service - these need to be mixed with West Coastway/ East Coastway/ Brighton/ East Croydon (etc) passengers.

True. Maybe just have it in the off peak. In the rush hour they'll just have to squash up.

 

[John55]

No, it was planned from the outset to be a cross-London service. The original service was:
Bedford - Brighton - Bedford.
Luton - Gatwick - Luton.
I can't remember what the South Easterns were, I know it involved Sevenoaks and Tonbridge.
Driver's route knowledge over the South Central was a bit peculiar in that Bedford drivers signed to Brighton but St. Pancras drivers only signed as far as Gatwick - but they refused to sign the sidings.

According to my old magazine file (Modern Railways Oct 1984) the GLC sponsored the development of the scheme to improve north south links across London and BR pursued it when it realised how much money it could save by not terminating trains both sides of London with the later the more important reason by far.

The original services were (1988 NRT);

Bedford - Brighton/Gatwick (1 per hour each)
Luton - Purley (2 per hour)
Cricklewood- Orpington/Sevenoaks (via Bromley South, 1 per hour each)

 

[Minstral25]

Regardless of the onboard ambience, I really don't think there's space for a dedicated Airport service amongst all of the other services passing through East Croydon - that's the most important thing.

Having several services from Gatwick to London each hour is fine, but we don't have the luxury of space for a separate service - these need to be mixed with West Coastway/ East Coastway/ Brighton/ East Croydon (etc) passengers.

I agree that ambiance isn't that important but adding GatEx passengers to already crowded long distance trains is not the answer.

I think it is better to utilise the existing paths for a stopping service that doesn't have a premium attached and reduces the crowding on said longer distance services and crowded outer suburban services. Unless it is extra first coaches for business passengers from the airport.

 

[RobShipway]

I agree that ambiance isn't that important but adding GatEx passengers to already crowded long distance trains is not the answer.

I think it is better to utilise the existing paths for a stopping service that doesn't have a premium attached and reduces the crowding on said longer distance services and crowded outer suburban services. Unless it is extra first coaches for business passengers from the airport.

That is why I say that the Class 377's should be doing the Brigton - Gatwick - London services and the Class 442's doing the Express Brighton - East Croydon - London services.