Gatwick Express to Brighton

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Skimpot flyer

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Are tickets marked Southern Only valid on Gatwick Express services that run to/ from Brighton? If so, how is this managed? Are the Platform 13/14 barriers at Victoria programmed to reject such tickets ?
 
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bb21

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Where is the ticket to/from?

I cannot find any London to Brighton ticket routed Southern Only.
 

yorkie

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Are tickets marked Southern Only valid on Gatwick Express services that run to/ from Brighton? If so, how is this managed? Are the Platform 13/14 barriers at Victoria programmed to reject such tickets ?
Yes. Southern no longer exist but did operate the GX route. The tickets are valid on the new train company, GTR.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Where is the ticket to/from?

I cannot find any London to Brighton ticket routed Southern Only.
example: London-Chichester http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=1072&dest=CCH&rte=777&tkt=0AK is valid via BTN.
 

Skimpot flyer

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Yes it is to Chichester. But I don't want an argument at the barrier, if the barrier won't open - that could cause me to miss my chosen train
 

yorkie

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Yes it is to Chichester. But I don't want an argument at the barrier, if the barrier won't open - that could cause me to miss my chosen train
Are you returning same day? Do you have any other ticket(s) for your journey (from Hatfield?) ?

GTR staff have been known to breach the NRCoC at the gateline at Victoria, so it could happen again.
 

Skimpot flyer

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In the end, I decided not to attempt to travel on the 22:30 Gatwick Express. I had a slow inbound journey (yes, from Hatfield:D) Arguing with poorly trained gate line staff (from reading other threads on here) could easily have resulted in a protracted delay, potentially causing me to miss the 22:30 AND the 22:32 direct-to-Chichester service. I travelled on the latter. But being the belligerent type, I'd still like to know the definitive answer as to validity on the Gatwick Express train...
 

bb21

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I travelled on the latter. But being the belligerent type, I'd still like to know the definitive answer as to validity on the Gatwick Express train...

AFAIK all Southern Only fares for destinations beyond Gatwick are valid on Gat Ex branded services.
 

Merseysider

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AFAIK all Southern Only fares for destinations beyond Gatwick are valid on Gat Ex branded services.
This is also my understanding.

'Southern' is no longer a TOC so a 'Southern' TOC routeing has no effect.
 

hairyhandedfool

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....a 'Southern' TOC routeing has no effect.

I'm yet to see any evidence* that a "Southern Only" ticket is valid by any Train Company.

* Actual evidence rather than customer services choosing to refund people who complain.
 

IslandDweller

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It's not an "any TOC" issue. It's specific to the TOC who have succeeded Southern.
Southern no longer operate trains, and the successor TOC is GoViaThameslink (who stick different brand stickers on the trains they operate). The brand names are marketing names, they are not legal entities / franchise holders.
 

yorkie

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There can be no other interpretation; the tickets shouldn't be routed for a defunct train company, but they are.

They're obviously valid on the replacement train company, which is Govia Thameslink Railway.

When a new company takes on a franchise, it has to honour tickets that were valid on the previous operator.
 

hairyhandedfool

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But that in itself doesn't mean the tickets are valid by more services than previously in the same way it doesn't mean they are valid by less.

A similar argument could be made that as Southern, and now GTR, have taken on Gatwick Express, they have to abide by the routeing "Not Gatwick Express", but you wouldn't argue it's not valid on any GTR service would you?
 

sarahj

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Most days I have to walk through a station and listen to an automated announcement on the subject. Perhaps its correct the saying, 'if you say it enough times It must be true'. ?:roll:
 

yorkie

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But that in itself doesn't mean the tickets are valid by more services than previously in the same way it doesn't mean they are valid by less.
I think they are valid by more services, as any train operated by the new company is valid.
A similar argument could be made that as Southern, and now GTR, have taken on Gatwick Express, they have to abide by the routeing "Not Gatwick Express", but you wouldn't argue it's not valid on any GTR service would you?
A "Not Gatwick Express" ticket is not at all NRCoC or TSA compliant; there is no train company of that name, so there is no restriction in my opinion. However that's not what the OP is asking about!
 

yorkie

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Most days I have to walk through a station and listen to an automated announcement on the subject. Perhaps its correct the saying, 'if you say it enough times It must be true'. ?:roll:
Some people at GTR HQ appear to want to brainwash and mislead people. They've probably never ever read the NRCoC or TSA and don't even know what they are!
 

gray1404

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Most days I have to walk through a station and listen to an automated announcement on the subject. Perhaps its correct the saying, 'if you say it enough times It must be true'. ?:roll:

I bet this is the one at Brighton saying that only tickets routed Any Permitted are valid on Gatwick Express services, and customers should check that their tickets are valid.
 

jopsuk

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Really is time that the relevant authorities (DfT? ATOC? ORR?) sorted the mess out. It is (I think?) unique to the Brighton Main Line, but it must be possible to either:
A: just get GTR to stop it
or, more likely
B: Rewrite NRCoC in such a way that brand-specific tickets are allowed, with the proviso that the separate brands are something written into the Franchise agreement, not something that the marketing team can invent when bored one wet Tuesday afternoon.
 

hairyhandedfool

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I think they are valid by more services, as any train operated by the new company is valid....

Wait a minute... You "think" it is valid by more? That doesn't sound very convincing.

....A Not Gatwick Express ticket is not at all NRCoC or TSA compliant; there is no train company of that name, so there is no restriction in my opinion. However that's not what the OP is asking about!

In what way, in your opinion, is it not NRCoC or TSA compliant?
 

JonathanH

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Really is time that the relevant authorities (DfT? ATOC? ORR?) sorted the mess out. It is (I think?) unique to the Brighton Main Line, but it must be possible to either:
A: just get GTR to stop it
or, more likely
B: Rewrite NRCoC in such a way that brand-specific tickets are allowed, with the proviso that the separate brands are something written into the Franchise agreement, not something that the marketing team can invent when bored one wet Tuesday afternoon.

It is known that the former TOC-specific tickets are going but it can't happen overnight because it would lead to large fare increases for some people. I for one am quite happy to wait for a Thameslink service to travel to Brighton for a cheaper fare than the Any Permitted price. Is the argument that you really want instant withdrawal of all the lower priced fares and only the Any Permitted fare being offered? Probably not - well then you have to put up with 'Southern only' etc whether it is envisaged by the NRCoC or not. How often do you travel on the southern part of the GTR network?
 

yorkie

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Wait a minute... You "think" it is valid by more? That doesn't sound very convincing.
*Yawn*
In what way, in your opinion, is it not NRCoC or TSA compliant?
NRCoC: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf
TSA: http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/governance/

Gatwick Express clearly isn't a train company; the NRCoC doesn't say it is. The NRCoC states Govia Thameslink Railway is a train company and that it uses multiple brand names. Condition 10 of the NRCoC allows train companies to restrict tickets to those of a particular train company. It does not permit brand restrictions. They can't redefine train company; it's a term with an inalienable meaning.

The Ticketing Settlement Agreement (TSA) allows an operator to set operator specific fares; there is no provision within the TSA to allow an operator to set brand specific fares. The definition of operator is very clear; Govia Thameslink Railway is an operator.

Govia Thameslink Railway are obliged to comply with the TSA; failure to do so would be a very serious matter indeed.
 

yorkie

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It is known that the former TOC-specific tickets are going but it can't happen overnight because it would lead to large fare increases for some people. I for one am quite happy to wait for a Thameslink service to travel to Brighton for a cheaper fare than the Any Permitted price. Is the argument that you really want instant withdrawal of all the lower priced fares and only the Any Permitted fare being offered? Probably not - well then you have to put up with 'Southern only' etc whether it is envisaged by the NRCoC or not. How often do you travel on the southern part of the GTR network?
This is a ludicrous argument.

All trains on the route are operated by Govia Thameslink, so there is no need to "wait" any longer for one than if you were to use the Any Permitted fare.

The fares ARE being withdrawn. It has been reported MANY times! You can't alter that fact! However the withdrawal of them is delayed because the DfT doesn't want prices to go up during the disruption caused by the London Bridge works.

Southern Only and Thameslink Only fares are not restricted to just those brand names, as there is no provision whatsoever in the NRCoC or TSA for such a restriction.

If you wish to impose an additional restriction on yourself, that's your choice.
 

yorkie

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Really is time that the relevant authorities (DfT? ATOC? ORR?) sorted the mess out. It is (I think?) unique to the Brighton Main Line, but it must be possible to either:
A: just get GTR to stop it
Customers won't accept fare rises, and GTR/DfT don't want to reduce revenue. Some people overpay, and GTR/DfT want them to continue to overpay.
B: Rewrite NRCoC in such a way that brand-specific tickets are allowed, with the proviso that the separate brands are something written into the Franchise agreement, not something that the marketing team can invent when bored one wet Tuesday afternoon.
I will oppose this every step of the way.<D
 

hairyhandedfool

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Well that's a mature response.

...
NRCoC: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf
TSA: http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/governance/

Gatwick Express clearly isn't a train company; the NRCoC doesn't say it is. The NRCoC states Govia Thameslink Railway is a train company and that it uses multiple brand names. Condition 10 of the NRCoC allows train companies to restrict tickets to those of a particular train company. It does not permit brand restrictions....

Condition 10 states that a ticket can be restricted to, or prohibited from, use on the services of a particular Train Company and that if it is, the restriction will be noted on the ticket.

If you argue that Gatwick Express is not a Train Company, then condition 10 is not applicable, because it isn't a Train Company.

It could, however, also be argued that, whilst Gatwick Express is not a Train Company, it is operated by one Train Company and that the ticket is further restricted by "brand". This would of course mean that the "brand" restriction would not need to be shown on the ticket, but I can't see good reason to advocate that as it would only cause problems.

....They can't redefine train company; it's a term with an inalienable meaning....

They may not be able to redefine "company", but they are not doing that, they are defining "Train Company" solely for the purposes of the NRCoC, because it is important to determine who "Train Company" refers to in the context of the NRCoC.

The number of contracts and legal documents that have a list of definitions is far higher than the number that don't, and those that do tend to have some fairly basic ones just for clarity. The TSA has many definitions for the purposes of the TSA, but I don't see you debating the legitimacy of them. I don't see how the NRCoC is any different.

....The Ticketing Settlement Agreement (TSA) allows an operator to set operator specific fares; there is no provision within the TSA to allow an operator to set brand specific fares. The definition of operator is very clear; Govia Thameslink Railway is an operator....

They are allowed to restrict certain tickets to the services of one train operator, Southern (the "brand") services are the services of one train operator.

TSA said:
4.15 Dedicated fares

Subject to Clause 4-25 below (where this applies), each Operator may Create Dedicated Fares in respect of journeys on its own trains.

That's what they have.

....Govia Thameslink Railway are obliged to comply with the TSA; failure to do so would be a very serious matter indeed.

Indeed, and GTR have not faced any serious consequences as yet, Southern Railway Limited did not either.
 

yorkie

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Condition 10 states that a ticket can be restricted to, or prohibited from, use on the services of a particular Train Company and that if it is, the restriction will be noted on the ticket.

If you argue that Gatwick Express is not a Train Company, then condition 10 is not applicable, because it isn't a Train Company.
Indeed.
It could, however, also be argued that, whilst Gatwick Express is not a Train Company, it is operated by one Train Company and that the ticket is further restricted by "brand". This would of course mean that the "brand" restriction would not need to be shown on the ticket, but I can't see good reason to advocate that as it would only cause problems.
There is no provision for this in the NRCoC or TSA.


They may not be able to redefine "company", but they are not doing that, they are defining "Train Company" solely for the purposes of the NRCoC, because it is important to determine who "Train Company" refers to in the context of the NRCoC.
They can't redefine train company for any "purpose"; it's a term with an inalienable meaning.

If a company doesn't exist, then it doesn't exist.
The number of contracts and legal documents that have a list of definitions is far higher than the number that don't, and those that do tend to have some fairly basic ones just for clarity. The TSA has many definitions for the purposes of the TSA, but I don't see you debating the legitimacy of them. I don't see how the NRCoC is any different.
I have no idea what you are saying but there is no provision for the brand restrictions which you appear to support in the TSA or NRCoC, so until there is, you will just have to lump it.
They are allowed to restrict certain tickets to the services of one train operator, Southern (the "brand") services are the services of one train operator.
Southern is not an "operator"; a list of operators can be found in the TSA.
Indeed, and GTR have not faced any serious consequences as yet, Southern Railway Limited did not either.
They refunded everyone who complained. Example: Southern admit they were wrong to sell GX "supplement".

I don't envisage any "consequences" for anyone who uses these tickets (apart from the hassle of having to request a refund/compensation) nor any "consequences" for GTR, as they will continue to issue refunds to anyone who is charged. DfT & ORR will be happy for that to continue, so the status quo remains. The higher priced fares are effectively a 'tax' for people who don't assert their rights.

The OP can now make his own choice. I suggest we leave it there, as there really is nothing further to debate.
 

Starmill

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I for one am somewhat amused by the notion that Hairyhandedfool puts forward that, despite there not being a provision for doing so in the NRCoC, a Train Company can add restrictions to a ticket based on a brand.

If one believes that the absence of an explicit prohibition is insufficient to permit something, perhaps there is a lesson in here somewhere.
 

yorkie

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It's also worth noting that companies can give us more rights than the NRCoC allows, but they cannot give us less!
 
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