GB Railfreight in 'locomotive acquisition' talks

[DarloRich]

Why does the the type of engine or sound made by the engine matter?

 

[Rob F]

Why does the the type of engine or sound made by the engine matter?

Because this is a broad interest railway forum and some of its members are interested in that sort of thing. Simple really.

 

[Rail Blues]

Because this is a broad interest railway forum and some of its members are interested in that sort of thing. Simple really.

Weirdos, given that the alternatives are mouldering away in a siding somewhere or getting turned into baked bean can, you'd think they'd be pleased to see them in use again, rather than fretting about the noise.

 

[DarloRich]

Weirdos, given that the alternatives are mouldering away in a siding somewhere or getting turned into baked bean can, you'd think they'd be pleased to see them in use again, rather than fretting about the noise.

exactly - and that the freight sector has won enough work ( or expects enough work) to make it worthwhile buying extra loco's

 

[43096]

Weirdos, given that the alternatives are mouldering away in a siding somewhere or getting turned into baked bean can, you'd think they'd be pleased to see them in use again, rather than fretting about the noise.

Who'd have thought it, railway enthusiasts on a railway forum discussing all aspects of the railway.

The weirdos are those on here who think otherwise....

 

[gingertom]

or even a Caterpillar engine in the 56's.

the same engine as fitted to the class 68s? That would make for an interesting piece of machinery.

 

[BRX]

Weirdos, given that the alternatives are mouldering away in a siding somewhere or getting turned into baked bean can, you'd think they'd be pleased to see them in use again, rather than fretting about the noise.

It's possible to be pleased to see them coming into use again, and at the same time have personal preferences about what they sound like.

 

[Rail Blues]

Who'd have thought it, railway enthusiasts on a railway forum discussing all aspects of the railway.

The weirdos are those on here who think otherwise....

Getting hung up over the sound of a particular engine and getting humpy that a new traction package will - shock horror sound different... no that's not weird at all.

Back in the real world it was a choice of scrap, decay in situ or retraction. So the fact they're making any sort of noise other than a baked bean tin being opened is a cause for celebration.

 

[Rail Blues]

It's possible to be pleased to see them coming into use again, and at the same time have personal preferences about what they sound like.

Which are are a total irrelevance for reasons stated above.

 

[BRX]

Which are are a total irrelevance for reasons stated above.

Irrelevant to what?

 

[43096]

Getting hung up over the sound of a particular engine and getting humpy that a new traction package will - shock horror sound different... no that's not weird at all.

Back in the real world it was a choice of scrap, decay in situ or retraction. So the fact they're making any sort of noise other than a baked bean tin being opened is a cause for celebration.

You sure you wanted a railway enthusiast forum, or were you actually after needlework or basket weaving or something?

 

[driver_m]

I'm with 43096 on this one. Plenty of people love the sounds of v8's and the like on cars or v-twins on motorbikes so why would the railway be any different if something makes a pleasing racket?

 

[the sniper]

Getting hung up over the sound of a particular engine and getting humpy that a new traction package will - shock horror sound different... no that's not weird at all.

Don't worry, you are the coolest rail enthusiast.

 

[ac6000cw]

I think it's mainly due to standardisation. Keeps costs down if EMD can do everything. HOWEVER, I've heard that it might not be the same mover as in the 66, but a different GM engine or even a Caterpillar engine in the 56's.

One issue with using a Cat engine e.g. a C175 is that they are high-speed engines, 1800 rpm at full power rather than the 900-950 rpm of the Ruston-Paxman RK3 or EMD 645/710 engines, so would not be able to use the existing class 56 alternator. So it would mean a new alternator or (as has been done by a loco re-builder in the US) putting a 2-1 speed reduction gearbox between engine and alternator.

 

[ac6000cw]

I'm with 43096 on this one. Plenty of people love the sounds of v8's and the like on cars or v-twins on motorbikes so why would the railway be any different if something makes a pleasing racket?

Quite - the noise of a big 4-stroke V12/V16 diesel engined loco, preferably with a few thousand tonnes of train behind it slowly clawing its way upgrade, is definitely one of the 'theatrical' aspects of train watching...

 

[gingertom]

One issue with using a Cat engine e.g. a C175 is that they are high-speed engines, 1800 rpm at full power rather than the 900-950 rpm of the Ruston-Paxman RK3 or EMD 645/710 engines, so would not be able to use the existing class 56 alternator. So it would mean a new alternator or (as has been done by a loco re-builder in the US) putting a 2-1 speed reduction gearbox between engine and alternator.

something else to go wrong, but probably a lot cheaper than a new alternator.

 

[driver_m]

Quite - the noise of a big 4-stroke V12/V16 diesel engined loco, preferably with a few thousand tonnes of train behind it slowly clawing its way upgrade, is definitely one of the 'theatrical' aspects of train watching...

On the scale of weird and railway, there are definitely bigger candidates. From the grown men doing their best 'casey jones' at me, or our Tapestry making , driver-botherer who loves to loiter on platforms, and many of the oddities I've worked with, spotters are fairly low down on that particular scale. Anyway, back to the point, what have GBRf actually acquired?

 

[Rail Blues]

You sure you wanted a railway enthusiast forum, or were you actually after needlework or basket weaving or something?

No I'd like to have a discussion about the actual issues - rather than folk getting their knickers in a twist over the precise engine tone of the retractioned locos' engine.

I'm with 43096 on this one. Plenty of people love the sounds of v8's and the like on cars or v-twins on motorbikes so why would the railway be any different if something makes a pleasing racket?

Because it isn't a sports car or a superbike and is a piece of functional industrial equipment, not a rich person's plaything or weekend hobby. It has more in common with a bus, a HGV or a JCB. To continue to stay in traffic and survive they need to pay their way. All other considerations are largely secondary.

Quite - the noise of a big 4-stroke V12/V16 diesel engined loco, preferably with a few thousand tonnes of train behind it slowly clawing its way upgrade, is definitely one of the 'theatrical' aspects of train watching...

Yes and as far as I'm aware they aren't going to be silent after retractioning, people are fretting over the tone of the engine.

Don't worry, you are the coolest rail enthusiast.

Don't be silly. I find myself annoyed by the phoney nostalgia and the whole nothing must change ever attitude that can pop up on these threads.

People who moaned about the sound of Class 43s after they were fitted with MTU engines seem to fail to appreciate that without that process, the 43s would probably have been scrapped a decade ago. Likewise it is a toss up between re-engined 56s or no 56s. The world moves on.

 

[43096]

No I'd like to have a discussion about the actual issues - rather than folk getting their knickers in a twist over the precise engine tone of the retractioned locos' engine.

Because it isn't a sports car or a superbike and is a piece of functional industrial equipment, not a rich person's plaything or weekend hobby. It has more in common with a bus, a HGV or a JCB. To continue to stay in traffic and survive they need to pay their way. All other considerations are largely secondary.

Yes and as far as I'm aware they aren't going to be silent after retractioning, people are fretting over the tone of the engine.

Don't be silly. I find myself annoyed by the phoney nostalgia and the whole nothing must change ever attitude that can pop up on these threads.

People who moaned about the sound of Class 43s after they were fitted with MTU engines seem to fail to appreciate that without that process, the 43s would probably have been scrapped a decade ago. Likewise it is a toss up between re-engined 56s or no 56s. The world moves on.

Obviously GBRf are making a business decision - I think most people would appreciate that.

But the sound a loco makes IS in many cases what makes enthusiasts like them. So debate over the sound is hardly surprising. You seem incapable of grasping that some people want to talk about it.

 

[Rail Blues]

Obviously GBRf are making a business decision - I think most people would appreciate that.

But the sound a loco makes IS in many cases what makes enthusiasts like them. So debate over the sound is hardly surprising. You seem incapable of grasping that some people want to talk about it.

I fully grasp the point, I think it is or should be utterly inconsequential, there is nothing to be debated, retractioning is happening.

 

[BRX]

there is nothing to be debated,

I predict the thread will continue to enthusiastically prove you wrong.

 

[Grannyjoans]

Catapiller engine would probably sound better than a GM engine - compare a 68 to a 66.

Despite how good the Ruston Paxman engine sounds, I'd much rather see a 56 returning with a different engine than remaining in storage and doing nothing.

It would still be good to see a few examples keep the original engine though, maybe with the different operators.

Always good to have a reminder as to what a normal 56 sounds like.

I'm with 43096 on this one. Plenty of people love the sounds of v8's and the like on cars or v-twins on motorbikes so why would the railway be any different if something makes a pleasing racket?

Because loud Cars and Motorbikes sound s***e. More of an annoying noise than anything.

They don't make a pleasing racket.
Thought people who like the noise they make to be wierdos.

You don't see anyone standing by the sides of country roads admiring the sound made by all the sports cars and super bikes roaring past constantly whenever it's a sunny weekend.

Before the 66 era you used to get hordes of train spotters standing on platform ends and bridges to admire the sounds of the classic locomotives. Some of them would be out all night.

Locomotives such as 37's and 56's sound awesome and its rare to hear one getting thrashed these days.

Cars and motorbikes? Hate them a lot. Even though I have a car. It's a utility. Nothing else. There is no pleasure in driving. I'd never drive again if there was a more convenient alternative. The sight and sound of other "traffic" is an eye sore.

 

[the sniper]

Because it isn't a sports car or a superbike and is a piece of functional industrial equipment, not a rich person's plaything or weekend hobby. It has more in common with a bus, a HGV or a JCB. To continue to stay in traffic and survive they need to pay their way. All other considerations are largely secondary.

They, like trains, are all just machines which make a noise. I'm not aware of anything which officially categorises what is and isn't an appreciable machine, noise wise.

Don't be silly. I find myself annoyed by the phoney nostalgia and the whole nothing must change ever attitude that can pop up on these threads.

Really isn't worth being annoyed about. Absolutely doesn't matter.

Because loud Cars and Motorbikes sound s***e. More of an annoying noise than anything.

They don't make a pleasing racket.
Thought people who like the noise they make to be wierdos.

Locomotives such as 37's and 56's sound awesome and its rare to hear one getting thrashed these days.

It's almost like different things appeal to different people. Even things so utterly different, WORLDS APART, like appreciating the sound of a Class 37 or alternatively, a V12 in the back of a Ferrari...

You don't see anyone standing by the sides of country roads admiring the sound made by all the sports cars and super bikes roaring past constantly whenever it's a sunny weekend.

Well not a country road but...

 

[ac6000cw]

Getting back more on-topic (and putting my pragmatic engineering hat on, rather than the enthusiast one), unless emissions regs are a problem for re-engining, I'd be quite surprised if it's anything other than an EMD V12 710 engine that goes in. Apart from anything else, mating a class 56 alternator to an EMD engine has been done successfully before in the class 57s (to a V12 645 in that case).

Given the experience of Brush in doing the class 57 conversions, and that the class 56 was a Brush design, I wonder if there is any Brush design input into these conversions?

 

[DarloRich]

But the sound a loco makes IS in many cases what makes enthusiasts like them. So debate over the sound is hardly surprising. You seem incapable of grasping that some people want to talk about it

If that is what you want to wibble over knock yourself out. I am in no way sentimental or nostalgic and I don't really care about many of the things enthusiasts obsess about so it is not of interest to me. The next discussion will be about bloody paint!

The important thing here is not the noise the engine makes but that a FOC has been confident enough about the freight market to invest in and convert locomotives to help them win/deliver orders. Considering how small some of the margins are on freight work that is a really good thing. It keeps people in work, keeps lorries off the road and is a fairly interesting engineering challenge to overcome.

but yeah, engine noise

 

[BRX]

If that is what you want to wibble over knock yourself out. I am in no way sentimental or nostalgic and I don't really care about many of the things enthusiasts obsess about so it is not of interest to me. The next discussion will be about bloody paint!

The important thing here is not the noise the engine makes but that a FOC has been confident enough about the freight market to invest in and convert locomotives to help them win/deliver orders. Considering how small some of the margins are on freight work that is a really good thing. It keeps people in work, keeps lorries off the road and is a fairly interesting engineering challenge to overcome.

but yeah, engine noise

I'm interested to know why you have a photo of an obsolete locomotive in your profile? Why not a modern one if you are immune to sentimentality or nostalgia?

 

[DarloRich]

I'm interested to know why you have a photo of an obsolete locomotive in your profile? Why not a modern one if you are immune to sentimentality or nostalgia?

View attachment 51037

aren't you a smart rse.

Mainly because of all the photos I had that fitted the avatar template and were of a suitable resolution that was the one that needed the least work and I was involved in a tiny way in planning that train and i was a passenger. I hope that is an acceptable reason for you.

PS another poster missing the point.

 

[BRX]

aren't you a smart rse.

Mainly because of all the photos I had that fitted the avatar template and were of a suitable resolution that was the one that needed the least work and I was involved in a tiny way in planning that train and i was a passenger. I hope that is an acceptable reason for you.

PS another poster missing the point.

I think it's great if you were involved in getting a deltic running on the mainline. I certainly am grateful for all the people that put time and effort into things like that. Surely you can see why it's odd to claim you have no time for sentimentality or nostalgia if you have been involved in something that is not to do with the efficient commercial operations of the modern railway. There are certainly people around who say there should be no historic traction on the mainline because it risks disrupting day to day operations and surely it's the same mindset that berates people for taking some joy in the sights or sounds of the railway. As it happens I think that our railways would perform considerably less well if there were no-one who cared about them beyond purely commercial considerations. If GBRf started making decisions on the re-engining of their locos based on what sounds the best, obviously that would be stupid. No-one's suggesting they should though, just commenting on their personal preferences and what they'll miss about the original engines. Some people seem to have a problem with that, even calling folk 'weirdos'. Bizzare on what is a rail enthusiasts' forum.

 

[gingertom]

I think it's great if you were involved in getting a deltic running on the mainline. I certainly am grateful for all the people that put time and effort into things like that. Surely you can see why it's odd to claim you have no time for sentimentality or nostalgia if you have been involved in something that is not to do with the efficient commercial operations of the modern railway. There are certainly people around who say there should be no historic traction on the mainline because it risks disrupting day to day operations and surely it's the same mindset that berates people for taking some joy in the sights or sounds of the railway. As it happens I think that our railways would perform considerably less well if there were no-one who cared about them beyond purely commercial considerations. If GBRf started making decisions on the re-engining of their locos based on what sounds the best, obviously that would be stupid. No-one's suggesting they should though, just commenting on their personal preferences and what they'll miss about the original engines. Some people seem to have a problem with that, even calling folk 'weirdos'. Bizzare on what is a rail enthusiasts' forum.

could you imagine the outcry if the Deltic Preservation Society suggested swapping out the Napiers for a 645, or any other 3300hp engine?

 

[ScottDarg]

GBRf have officially confirmed the acquisition of 10 Class 60s from Colas Rail. They've been sold to and leased back from Beacon Rail:

GB Railfreight (GBRf) is today pleased to announce that it has agreed a sale and long-term leaseback of 10 class 60 locomotives with Beacon Rail, marking the latest expansion of its locomotive fleet. The move continues to underline what an exciting period of growth this is for GBRf, as the company continues to move further into the commodities market, including biomass and aggregate industries.

The new locomotives will enable both higher trailing weights on certain routes, as well as offering greater efficiency. In particular, the increase in the number of locomotives means that there can be further growth on existing contracts, including GBRf’s ‘Flying Dustman’ service in partnership with Biffa. This started back in March, and sees muck taken away from sites in major industrial centres Manchester and Leeds.

John Smith, Managing Director of GBRf, said of the transaction:

“GB Railfreight is thrilled to be in the position to expand our fleet of locos in this way. The move is demonstrative of why GBRf is the UK’s fastest growing rail freight company, and this rate of development will only continue. Many thanks to the team at Beacon Rail for helping to make this expansion a reality.”

Trevor Butler, Senior Director of Lease Originations at Beacon Rail said:

“Beacon Rail is excited to agree this important transaction with our long-standing and valued customer GB Railfreight and to be part of GBRf’s continuing growth.”

http://railtube.info/2018/08/gb-rai...0-class-60-locomotives-with-beacon-rail-gbrf/

An update on the WNXX news page this morning states that 60047, 60076, 60085, 60087 & 60095 are now in the GBRT pool with 66745.

Those already transferred to GBRf have been partially de-branded (https://flic.kr/p/MUz2PS) and training has started. Location of each 60 as of this morning (according to Railcam at least):

• 60002: Working 6L44 Oxwellmains to West Thurrock
• 60021: Toton
• 60026: Toton
• 60047: Doncaster
• 60056: Toton
• 60076: Doncaster
• 60085: Doncaster
• 60087: Doncaster
• 60095: Whitemoor Yard
• 60096: Toton

EDIT: 60085 ran to Tuebrook sidings this afternoon.