GEML franchise 2016

[HH]

Or D-trains for the Norfolk branch lines

I have been told that DfT are totally opposed to the D-trains being used anywhere.

 

[grumblingalong]

One to throw into the pot is that rumour has it the First bid includes taking over the Norwich-Lime St. Services from East Midlands. Discuss.

 

[TheEdge]

One to throw into the pot is that rumour has it the First bid includes taking over the Norwich-Lime St. Services from East Midlands. Discuss.

That's been a rumour for a long time but not the whole service. EMT are not exactly enamoured with their Norwich depot. It's small, remote depot with very few routes and, as I understand from chats with non Norwich EMT staff quite oddly behaved when it comes to union, staff and company relations.

It's long been on the table that the Anglia franchise will run Norwich Peterborough, the EMT depot will be absorbed in Anglia and EMT will turn their services at Peterborough.

 

[HH]

Gone as in happily retired yes. Mostly in their 60s or even 70s now, but nevertheless are watching this latest bun fight with some detached amusement.

Most Directors retired and were replaced before FGE ended; they'll all be in their 70s now. Their replacements are mostly still around somewhere, but would be unlikely to return to EA. Many senior staff have also retired; others left under NX's tenure as it seemed that NX preferred ex-WAGN or Anglia staff to FGE.

So First would largely be in the same position as any other non-incumbent.

 

[47802]

Just heard a rumour that the First bid (unsurprisingly so) includes another rather massive order of Hitachi stock.

Personally I would take that with a pinch of salt at present, for Bi-modes clearly First don't have much choice, but for electric units there is much more choice, including or course Siemens and Bombardier and the still to be confirmed choice of First getting CAF electric units for TPE, so at this stage you may as well throw in a rumour that First are going to get loads of CAF electric units for this franchise, oh and some CAF DMU's for local services

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have been told that DfT are totally opposed to the D-trains being used anywhere.

Interesting if that true, I would have though that a concentration of D trains for local routes out of Norwich would actually be a reasonable viable usage for these trains.

Are they now scared of the bad publicity? ie Northern's not getting them so why should anybody else have to have them?

 

[samuelmorris]

A little off-topic but if that's true, it adds to my dislike of the DfT's continued dismissal of the 230, with the shortage of DMUs as severe as it is at present, it presents a good opportunity to assess whether lines that are currently underutilised and thus underserved would see a benefit from improving the service - I've seen so many cases of colossal increases in usage numbers on railway lines because the service has been improved that I'm starting to wonder whether the approach of scaling back service on quieter routes is really such a good approach. Rather than committing brand new 195-esque DMUs into East Anglia they could gauge the effectiveness of upgrading the area with 230s first and if it works out, a decade or two of service would provide sufficient growth to justify replacing them with 'proper' units - I can think of numerous parallels to that.

Fine enough if the DfT object to their use so they can introduce better rolling stock instead (although the concept of wasting money comes to mind), but if they intend to object to them and carry on with a stretched-thin fleet of 153s and the likes, it makes no real sense.

 

[306024]

That's been a rumour for a long time but not the whole service. EMT are not exactly enamoured with their Norwich depot. It's small, remote depot with very few routes and, as I understand from chats with non Norwich EMT staff quite oddly behaved when it comes to union, staff and company relations.

It's long been on the table that the Anglia franchise will run Norwich Peterborough, the EMT depot will be absorbed in Anglia and EMT will turn their services at Peterborough.

Another rumour! And odd behaviour in Norwich?, surely not

As for the Anglia franchise running Norwich - Peterborough, hasn't that table been chopped up and used for firewood?

Most Directors retired and were replaced before FGE ended; they'll all be in their 70s now.

All? that will upset a couple of them

 

[TheEdge]

A little off-topic but if that's true, it adds to my dislike of the DfT's continued dismissal of the 230, with the shortage of DMUs as severe as it is at present, it presents a good opportunity to assess whether lines that are currently underutilised and thus underserved would see a benefit from improving the service - I've seen so many cases of colossal increases in usage numbers on railway lines because the service has been improved that I'm starting to wonder whether the approach of scaling back service on quieter routes is really such a good approach. Rather than committing brand new 195-esque DMUs into East Anglia they could gauge the effectiveness of upgrading the area with 230s first and if it works out, a decade or two of service would provide sufficient growth to justify replacing them with 'proper' units - I can think of numerous parallels to that.

I notice your location down in the South East may have tainted your view of Norfolk, Suffolk and Cambridgeshire as rural backwaters where the only commuters are the farmers driving their sheep to market but underutilised those services are not. Norwich Sheringham and Norwich Cambridge services will always be fairly well loaded. When summer comes Sheringham and Yarmouth services are all busy all day. East Suffolk services tend to be very busy, especially morning and evening and well loaded all day. Ipswich Cambridge services as well. As to a decade to prove demand, no. It took less than a year for East Suffolk numbers to sky rocket when the hourly service was introduced.

There is no need to offload rural regions with the D trains as interim if new ones can be ordered. We all know how well interim stock works. Those Pacers and to a lesser extent 153s were only interm 30 years ago. We would like new stock for a change. Not more London hand me downs.

Or would you prefer we begged cap in hand asking for your scraps from the capital which is far better than us mere provinces?

 

[fgwrich]

I notice your location down in the South East may have tainted your view of Norfolk, Suffolk and Cambridgeshire as rural backwaters where the only commuters are the farmers driving their sheep to market but underutilised those services are not. Norwich Sheringham and Norwich Cambridge services will always be fairly well loaded. When summer comes Sheringham and Yarmouth services are all busy all day. East Suffolk services tend to be very busy, especially morning and evening and well loaded all day. Ipswich Cambridge services as well. As to a decade to prove demand, no. It took less than a year for East Suffolk numbers to sky rocket when the hourly service was introduced.

There is no need to offload rural regions with the D trains as interim if new ones can be ordered. We all know how well interim stock works. Those Pacers and to a lesser extent 153s were only interm 30 years ago. We would like new stock for a change. Not more London hand me downs.

Or would you prefer we begged cap in hand asking for your scraps from the capital which is far better than us mere provinces?

But, thinking about it for a moment. Could the 230s not at least find a use on something like the Sudbury branch, and possibly Sheringham / Cromer until Electrification and Modernisation of both routes? Whereby allowing - at least on the Sudbury Branch, a release of 156 to bulk up another service?

Of course, don't forget that there's going to be a fair amount of 153s released from the GW & Northern franchises within the next few years, as well as ScotRail 156s. So any bidder for the Anglian franchise could scoop up some of those as well, the 153s could be converted back to 155s and DDA'd.

As for the ex FGE Managers and Directors. Not all are old and have left the railway now, Mark Hopwood of FGW/GWR Fame is also ex First Great Eastern and there's a few of the ex Anglia management around as well.

 

[306024]

But, thinking about it for a moment. Could the 230s not at least find a use on something like the Sudbury branch, and possibly Sheringham / Cromer until Electrification and Modernisation of both routes? Whereby allowing - at least on the Sudbury Branch, a release of 156 to bulk up another service?

As for the ex FGE Managers and Directors. Not all are old and have left the railway now, Mark Hopwood of FGW/GWR Fame is also ex First Great Eastern and there's a few of the ex Anglia management around as well.

230s, with as I understand a max speed of 60mph, would be no use on the Sheringham line. You would have to change the timetable which would require another unit, and therefore more crews, which would push the cost up.

And Mark Hopwood was never at FGE, even if he did buy me a pint once.

 

[pemma]

Personally I would take that with a pinch of salt at present, for Bi-modes clearly First don't have much choice, but for electric units there is much more choice, including or course Siemens and Bombardier and the still to be confirmed choice of First getting CAF electric units for TPE, so at this stage you may as well throw in a rumour that First are going to get loads of CAF electric units for this franchise, oh and some CAF DMU's for local services

There is no requirement to order new local/regional DMUs, the 156s and 170s are not life expired, plus there are 156s, 172s and 185s which will be released from their current franchises which haven't yet been snapped up (LO 172s to LM could mean more 170s to Anglia), then on top of that the ROSCOs think the new 195s for Northern will be the only new DMUs required in CP5. So if First want new local/regional DMUs they'll have a lot of work to do to convince the ROSCOs and DfT that they are required.

Interesting if that true, I would have though that a concentration of D trains for local routes out of Norwich would actually be a reasonable viable usage for these trains.

Are they now scared of the bad publicity? ie Northern's not getting them so why should anybody else have to have them?

I think it's more a case of a D-Train with a brand new interior including toilet has a poor business case due to how much it costs (Govia were reportedly given a price 3 times what Vivarail had originally hinted at when they first did a presentation to the rail industry.) While one with a refreshed ex-LU interior would be cheaper it wouldn't give a good impression.

One to throw into the pot is that rumour has it the First bid includes taking over the Norwich-Lime St. Services from East Midlands. Discuss.

The whole route? Liverpool's a long way from the Anglia franchise area! While it could involve using some TPE drivers the two franchises will have different end dates so could run in to problems if First either don't get a franchise extension on TPE or win the next franchise.

 

[dquebec]

I can't see the Greater Anglia franchise taking over the Liverpool-Norwich route - what I can see is a joint staffing arrangement, whereby the Norwich staff are transferred into the GA franchise, and relieve EMT crew at Peterborough etc.

From my regular travels, it appears as though the EMT Norwich traincrew are quite old - it must be where rail staff come to retire.

 

[HH]

I think it's more a case of a D-Train with a brand new interior including toilet has a poor business case due to how much it costs (Govia were reportedly given a price 3 times what Vivarail had originally hinted at when they first did a presentation to the rail industry.) While one with a refreshed ex-LU interior would be cheaper it wouldn't give a good impression.

While this is true and there's also probably a political element, I get the feeling that Vivarail have also upset the boys in Marsham Street in some way.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From my regular travels, it appears as though the EMT Norwich traincrew are quite old - it must be where rail staff come to retire.

No, it's the effect of living in Norwich!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Interesting if that true, I would have though that a concentration of D trains for local routes out of Norwich would actually be a reasonable viable usage for these trains.

The Norwich-Great Yarmouth/Lowestoft routes are due to be the testbed for NR's digital railway, including ETCS.
The notion of fitting D-trains with ETCS doesn't seem like the best use of scarce resources, or to have much relevance for the rest of the railway.

 

[47802]

The Norwich-Great Yarmouth/Lowestoft routes are due to be the testbed for NR's digital railway, including ETCS.
The notion of fitting D-trains with ETCS doesn't seem like the best use of scarce resources, or to have much relevance for the rest of the railway.

Well that might be more conducive to new trains then. Despite 'jcollins' unrequired rolling stock lecture I don't think it's imposible new Dmu's could be offered. No the majority of Anglia's diesel fleet doesn't need replacing although the 153 might be more debatable and clearly extra capacity is needed and what's available for cascade is somewhat limited if you exclude the 185's which I doubt will end up in Anglia unless they ended up on the Norwich Liverpools, and I'm sure CAF will be keen to flog a few more DMU's if they can

 

[Bald Rick]

While this is true and there's also probably a political element, I get the feeling that Vivarail have also upset the boys in Marsham Street in some way.

What have they done to upset the Home Office?

 

[HH]

If you know you history and geography, you wouldn't ask that question.

 

[jopsuk]

Whilst Anglia's DMU fleet is far from life expired, it is horribly unreliable- plus their 26-strong fleet is split across three classes (one of which is in two formations) and units from 1-3 cars in length. It's not that uncommon that they have to hire in a bus or two to supplement services (eg evening peak out of Cambridge towards Ipswich) because a long enough DMU isn't available.

 

[deltic]

There is no requirement to order new local/regional DMUs, the 156s and 170s are not life expired, plus there are 156s, 172s and 185s which will be released from their current franchises which haven't yet been snapped up (LO 172s to LM could mean more 170s to Anglia), then on top of that the ROSCOs think the new 195s for Northern will be the only new DMUs required in CP5. So if First want new local/regional DMUs they'll have a lot of work to do to convince the ROSCOs and DfT that they are required.



I think it's more a case of a D-Train with a brand new interior including toilet has a poor business case due to how much it costs (Govia were reportedly given a price 3 times what Vivarail had originally hinted at when they first did a presentation to the rail industry.) While one with a refreshed ex-LU interior would be cheaper it wouldn't give a good impression.

.

Allegedly the cost of new rolling stock is now so competitive it may be markedly cheaper than leasing existing stock or this may be a negotiating ploy with ROSCOs to try and reduce leasing costs. If it is the case then there might be a bit more surplus rolling stock trying to find a home.

 

[306024]

I can't see the Greater Anglia franchise taking over the Liverpool-Norwich route - what I can see is a joint staffing arrangement, whereby the Norwich staff are transferred into the GA franchise, and relieve EMT crew at Peterborough etc.

From my regular travels, it appears as though the EMT Norwich traincrew are quite old - it must be where rail staff come to retire.

Nice part of the world to retire to.

Getting a bit away from the GEML admittedly but Norwich EMT crews work to Nottingham, and I'd guess (but perhaps someone can confirm) Nottingham crews work to Lime St? (as well as Norwich in the other direction). That would seem to be the most efficient way of diagramming the route, so introducing relief at Peterborough could prove more expensive. Do any other EMT depots get involved with the Norwich - Lime St service?

Whilst Anglia's DMU fleet is far from life expired, it is horribly unreliable- plus their 26-strong fleet is split across three classes (one of which is in two formations) and units from 1-3 cars in length. It's not that uncommon that they have to hire in a bus or two to supplement services (eg evening peak out of Cambridge towards Ipswich) because a long enough DMU isn't available.

A more uniform fleet would be much better operationally, but more expensive to operate, in fuel and maintenance if nothing else. More intriguing is what rolling stock is being suggested for these new Lowestoft - Liverpool St services, given that the specification if I recall correctly is just two return trips a day. It is unlikely to be suitable at both ends of the route.

 

[43074]

A more uniform fleet would be much better operationally, but more expensive to operate, in fuel and maintenance if nothing else. More intriguing is what rolling stock is being suggested for these new Lowestoft - Liverpool St services, given that the specification if I recall correctly is just two return trips a day. It is unlikely to be suitable at both ends of the route.

CAF seem to offer bi-mode versions of their ''Civity UK'' platform, something of this sort - a bi-mode regional unit - would seem suitable, especially considering the extension of Norwich to Cambridge services to Stansted, which will require more units anyway. Having said that, very few would be needed anyway so it would probably be ruled out on cost grounds.

 

[TheEdge]

Whilst Anglia's DMU fleet is far from life expired, it is horribly unreliable- plus their 26-strong fleet is split across three classes (one of which is in two formations) and units from 1-3 cars in length. It's not that uncommon that they have to hire in a bus or two to supplement services (eg evening peak out of Cambridge towards Ipswich) because a long enough DMU isn't available.

Its too small, none of what makes it up is inherently unreliable, its just run into the ground out of necessity. There just isn't the slack in the fleet to sit and give the stock the TLC it needs. The diagrams are written in such a way that should keep 153s off busy services or in pairs but practicalities cause issues. Its been compounded with the loss of 170204 for the forseeable/forever.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

New rolling stock is a pre-requisite for the franchise I believe for the intercity service (they could get the 91s and MK4 off VTEC but I'm not sure that would win the franchise). If the franchise winner went with a new fleet for Cambridge / Stansted then the 170s from the Cambridge service would supplement the regional DMU. Looking around, I'm not sure there's going to be to many DMUs worth having around for a while that haven't already got destinations (i.e. 170s)

 

[pemma]

New rolling stock is a pre-requisite for the franchise I believe

Do you have a source for that? I had a look through the ITT a while back and don't recall any requirement for new trains even if some people are saying that if VTEC, GWR and TPE are all getting new trains then GEML should as well.

If the franchise winner went with a new fleet for Cambridge / Stansted then the 170s from the Cambridge service would supplement the regional DMU. Looking around, I'm not sure there's going to be to many DMUs worth having around for a while that haven't already got destinations (i.e. 170s)

As far as I'm aware the following will become off-lease with no future operator confirmed:
- 5 x 156s from Scotrail - enough to eliminate the Anglia 153s
- 22 x 185s from TPE
- 8 x 172s from LO

And there could well be an indirect cascade to allow 172s and/or 185s to replace 156s or 170s elsewhere so that more 156s or 170s go to Anglia.

 

[hwl]

Do you have a source for that? I had a look through the ITT a while back and don't recall any requirement for new trains even if some people are saying that if VTEC, GWR and TPE are all getting new trains then GEML should as well.



As far as I'm aware the following will become off-lease with no future operator confirmed:
- 5 x 156s from Scotrail - enough to eliminate the Anglia 153s
- 22 x 185s from TPE
- 8 x 172s from LO

And there could well be an indirect cascade to allow 172s and/or 185s to replace 156s or 170s elsewhere so that more 156s or 170s go to Anglia.

To add to your list other spare EMUs of types already operated by Anglia:
317 ex LO x14
317 ex GN x12
321 ex GN x13
321/322 ex Northern x8

37 units. Some going to Anglia might fit in with fleet unification and removing micro fleets. Reducing total subsidy to Anglia including the allocation of the NR grant will be on DfT's agenda.
Which

 

[swt_passenger]

Do you have a source for that? I had a look through the ITT a while back and don't recall any requirement for new trains even if some people are saying that if VTEC, GWR and TPE are all getting new trains then GEML should as well.

Concur.

The ITT definitely does not require bidders to use any new rolling stock at all.

It is however written in such a way as to encourage new stock if that is the only way of getting the appropriate quality for the relevant routes.

 

[hwl]

Concur.

The ITT definitely does not require bidders to use any new rolling stock at all.

It is however written in such a way as to encourage new stock if that is the only way of getting the appropriate quality for the relevant routes.

321 refurb + retraction (partly DfT encouraged) probably ticks the quality box) and adding more 321s and potentially the same options with 317s would reduce the need for new stock excluding the 90s+Mk3s.

I suspect winning bids will need to return far more to DfT that the current franchise to revenue will have to be increased (mainly extra pax?) while keeping costs low.

 

[pemma]

To add to your list other spare EMUs of types already operated by Anglia:
317 ex LO x14
317 ex GN x12
321 ex GN x13
321/322 ex Northern x8

37 units. Some going to Anglia might fit in with fleet unification and removing micro fleets. Reducing total subsidy to Anglia including the allocation of the NR grant will be on DfT's agenda.
Which

Yep. I was responding to the claim of not many DMUs around. There would also be the option of introducing 319s (I'm not sure if replacing 317s with 319s would have any real advantage) and also there's the option of the speculative Porterbrook 387s (c2c have secured some on a short term deal) but again I'm not sure if there would be any advantage of Anglia taking on those.

Anyway, Anglia bidders have plenty of options available before they consider new stock - I think the first time in a long time bidders will have been in that position.

 

[tbtc]

Before I get the crayons out, could someone confirm the maximum length of EMU that could operate the Liverpool Street - Norwich services?

I'm wondering about one "long distance" fleet to replace the 360s/ 379s/ class90s, with a "short distance" fleet made up with all the ex-Northern/TSGN 321/322s augmenting the existing numbers at GA - but I appreciate that platform lengths at Liverpool Street are an issue.

360s could presumably find a home at LM or SWT, 379s could presumably find a home at C2C/ SE/ TSGN, but would one type of EMU be suitable for all the Cambridge/ Stansted/ Norwich services?

(have some with extra luggage room for Stansted if required, maybe more catering on the Norwich ones, but essentially the same type of EMU - e.g. is 8x23 the longest Liverpool Street could accomodate? 10x20? 10x23? 12x20?)

 

[hwl]

Before I get the crayons out, could someone confirm the maximum length of EMU that could operate the Liverpool Street - Norwich services?

I'm wondering about one "long distance" fleet to replace the 360s/ 379s/ class90s, with a "short distance" fleet made up with all the ex-Northern/TSGN 321/322s augmenting the existing numbers at GA - but I appreciate that platform lengths at Liverpool Street are an issue.

360s could presumably find a home at LM or SWT, 379s could presumably find a home at C2C/ SE/ TSGN, but would one type of EMU be suitable for all the Cambridge/ Stansted/ Norwich services?

(have some with extra luggage room for Stansted if required, maybe more catering on the Norwich ones, but essentially the same type of EMU - e.g. is 8x23 the longest Liverpool Street could accomodate? 10x20? 10x23? 12x20?)

P1 242m (12x 20m [just] or 10x 23m)
P2-8 252m (12x 20m or 10x 23m nearly 11x 23m)
P10 248m (12x 20m or 10x 23m)
P11 261m (13x 20m or 11x 23m)
P12 246m (12x 20m or 10x 23m)
P13 256m (12x 20m or 11x 23m)
P14+15 246m(12x 20m or 10x 23m)
P16-18 162m but 18 will disappear and 16+17 will be lengthened to at least 215m probably more for residual Crossrail services.

It will reach a certain point where the ROSCOs won't finance and supply new stock if their own existing stock is going ex-lease without a new home (or potential one).