• Dear Guest, and welcome to RailUK Forums. Our non-railway discussion forums are currently restricted until members have five or more posts, and you will not be able to make a new thread or reply to an existing one in this section until you have made five or more posts elsewhere on the forum.

General Strike 4th July 2016???

Status
Not open for further replies.

Wivenswold

Established Member
Joined
24 Jul 2012
Messages
1,195
Location
Essex
Evening all.

I'm hearing from some of my friends in the teaching sector that there is a plan for what they're calling a "General Strike" with several other non-teaching unions. The protest is against Austerity and Government cuts to core services. I guess you could throw in the back door privatisation of public services too.

Anyway, politics aside, is anyone aware of the rail unions thinking on this and whether they are planning on joining the action in solidarity?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
22,888
Location
Redcar
Would they be allowed to? They're not involved in the same dispute?
 

kevconnor

Member
Joined
22 Apr 2013
Messages
564
Location
People's Republic of Mancunia
They (RMT et al) couldn't strike over public sector cuts as it is an industrial dispute they are not party to. Indeed even the teaching and civil service unions when they strike on the same day normally are striking over different issues. What the unions are getting wiser at doing is co-ordinating strike action together. So for example A union could say it is in dispute with B Toc over pay and conditions and ballot to strike on 4th July to coincide with other planned action.
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
If they all had their own disputes and just happened to call a strike for the same day then that would be legal.

Of course each union would have to comply with all the rules around striking to make all the individual strikes legal.
 
Last edited:

Agent_c

Member
Joined
22 Jan 2015
Messages
933
Unless you are involved in a trade dispute with your employer AND the union has jumped through the right hoops, it isn't a legal strike, it's being absent without leave. Puts you at risk of disciplinary action or dismissal.

Join at your own risk.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
26,839
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
One does wonder how much the Government will take the slightest notices of "a co-ordinated day of action" by the trades unions and any disruption so caused to the general public will just be a source of transference of blame by the Government onto the Trades Unions involved.
 
Last edited:

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
24,745
Location
Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
One does wonder how much the Government will take the slightest notices of "a co-ordinated day of action" by the trades unions and any disruption so caused to the general public will just be a source of transference of blame by the Government onto the Trades Unions involved.

So they should just bend over and take all of the rubbish the government chuck out about them?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Unless you are involved in a trade dispute with your employer AND the union has jumped through the right hoops, it isn't a legal strike, it's being absent without leave. Puts you at risk of disciplinary action or dismissal.

Join at your own risk.

Correct - unless you are part of an official trade dispute. As suggested above there could be lots of official trade disputes that day. Not that there will be in any event because of the sheer difficulty in ensuing you jump through all of the hoops the Conservative (party of the workers) government have put in place to limit the right to withdraw your labour in the event of a dispute.
 
Last edited:

NSEFAN

Established Member
Joined
17 Jun 2007
Messages
3,327
Location
Southampton
I suppose that if everyone in the UK decided to just not work on that day, there's nothing that could be done legally to prevent it. It might bugger up the economy but would certainly send a message of no confidence to the government! If a general strike is organised outside of any recognised workers' union, would the government still be able to take action against the organisers?
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
24,745
Location
Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
I suppose that if everyone in the UK decided to just not work on that day, there's nothing that could be done legally to prevent it. It might bugger up the economy but would certainly send a message of no confidence to the government! If a general strike is organised outside of any recognised workers' union, would the government still be able to take action against the organisers?

Conservatives? Of course they would and enjoy doing it.
 

Groningen

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2015
Messages
2,866
Question is whether the unions are as strong as 30 years ago, when Thatcher tried to destroy them.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
26,839
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
So they should just bend over and take all of the rubbish the government chuck out about them?

That is not the point that my posting was making and I think you know it, as I am sure that you are well aware. Did I say anything like what you say in my posting?

I regret in having to repeat myself but I will for those whom my posting seems to have confused, but now phrased more bluntly. This particular Government will not take a blind bit of notice of a " co-ordinated day of action" by the Trades Unions, should this occur.
 
Last edited:

theblackwatch

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2006
Messages
10,457
I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of 'general strike' occurs. One item on the current agenda is the government, having agreed a long-term affordable redundancy/compensation policy back in 2010, now want to amend this and reduce entitlements, which will affect teachers, nurses, civil servants, police, fire brigade etc, and is currently 'consulting' on this but I expect if no agreement is reached, it will just try and impose it anyway. Some sort of co-ordinated action by all the unions involved is something I could see occurring.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
24,745
Location
Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
That is not the point that my posting was making and I think you know it, as I am sure that you are well aware. Did I say anything like what you say in my posting?

I regret in having to repeat myself but I will for those whom my posting seems to have confused, but now phrased more bluntly. This particular Government will not take a blind bit of notice of a " co-ordinated day of action" by the Trades Unions, should this occur.

Paul: your point is quite clear. I understood it then and do now. However you fail to answer my question. I regret that I must pose the question once again:

What should the unions do?

The inference of your post is that they should roll over like good little boys and pliantly accept the attacks on their members and the enforced changes to services we all rely on without comment.

Many of us do not feel these changes benefit the majority and are designed to water down and reduce public services ahead of a sell off which will be done cheaply to provide vast profits to Tory donors. Lets not forget that this is a government who have managed to drive those most militant of people, barristers and doctors, into strike action! That is impressive work.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
26,839
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
Paul: your point is quite clear. I understood it then and do now. However you fail to answer my question. I regret that I must pose the question once again:

What should the unions do?

The inference of your post is that they should roll over like good little boys and pliantly accept the attacks on their members and the enforced changes to services we all rely on without comment.

Many of us do not feel these changes benefit the majority and are designed to water down and reduce public services ahead of a sell off which will be done cheaply to provide vast profits to Tory donors. Lets not forget that this is a government who have managed to drive those most militant of people, barristers and doctors, into strike action! That is impressive work.

What the Trades Unions do or do not do is a matter for them to address and is not a matter that I need to discuss upon this particular thread as I have no interest in their views. But you already know of my views from past threads.

Once again, I categorically state that in none of my postings have I made a comment that could possibly infer the view you so express in your third paragraph.

So, I shall say this for the VERY LAST TIME....The only opinion expressed by me is that this particular Government will not give a blind bit of notice for any Trades Union 24 hour period of co-ordinated action....nothing more, nothing less.
 
Last edited:

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
24,745
Location
Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
What the Trades Unions do or do not do is a matter for them to address and is not a matter that I need to discuss upon this particular thread as I have no interest in their views. But you already know of my views from past threads.

Once again, I categorically state that in none of my postings have I made a comment that could possibly infer the view you so express in your third paragraph.

So, I shall say this for the VERY LAST TIME....The only opinion expressed by me is that this particular Government will not give a blind bit of notice for any Trades Union 24 hour period of co-ordinated action....nothing more, nothing less.

Your view is quite clear. It was clear in the first second and third postings making the same points. I understood you the first time! We are in agreement that the Government will pay little or no attention to such a protest. However, it seems you are unable or unwilling to answer the question:

What should the unions do?

Finally it clear you have an interest in these matters as you commented upon such a thread. It is therefore a logical supposition that you have a view on what the unions should do to represents the views of their members in this case. What is it?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
26,839
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
Your view is quite clear. It was clear in the first second and third postings making the same points. I understood you the first time! We are in agreement that the Government will pay little or no attention to such a protest. However, it seems you are unable or unwilling to answer the question:

What should the unions do?

Finally it clear you have an interest in these matters as you commented upon such a thread. It is therefore a logical supposition that you have a view on what the unions should do to represents the views of their members in this case. What is it?

Just re-read the first paragraph of my last posting and in that you will find that I have made my point ever so clear upon that very matter to which you so allude above.

No, I disagree that it is a logical supposition that I have a view on what Trades Unions either do or not do, especially when one reads what I have said above.

I am sure there are those at the top echelons of those Trades Unions who are well placed to represent the views of their union members and who need no advice from "armchair critics of an internet forum" to use a phrase used by another website member on another thread in past days on this website.
 
Last edited:

Oswyntail

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2009
Messages
4,183
Location
Yorkshire
.....What should the unions do? ....
Though it is a mite late now, they could abandon their long-term sulk at the result in 2010, and try positive engagement with the Government of the UK. Since that election, their position has been "You are not <insert title of profession here> so you cannot understand what we do and cannot budge us".
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
24,745
Location
Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
Though it is a mite late now, they could abandon their long-term sulk at the result in 2010, and try positive engagement with the Government of the UK. Since that election, their position has been "You are not <insert title of profession here> so you cannot understand what we do and cannot budge us".

There must be someone willing to receive engagement but the Government have no interest in engaging on anything, especially industrial relations! Their idea of engagement is the Trade Union Bill.

Just re-read the first paragraph of my last posting and in that you will find that I have made my point ever so clear upon that very matter to which you so allude above.

No, I disagree that it is a logical supposition that I have a view on what Trades Unions either do or not do, especially when one reads what I have said above.

I am sure there are those at the top echelons of those Trades Unions who are well placed to represent the views of their union members and who need no advice from "armchair critics of an internet forum" to use a phrase used by another website member on another thread in past days on this website.

So you aren't prepared to debate your views or ideas? There is, to extend your suggestion, little point discussing anything at all! :roll:

I understand that lowering yourself to discuss matters of the hoi polloi must be dreadfully distasteful. However I would urge you to climb down from your ivory tower and try to see the argument from the other side. Walk a mile in their shoes and understand their position. You may find it invigorating!
 
Last edited:

muz379

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2014
Messages
1,828
Unless you are involved in a trade dispute with your employer AND the union has jumped through the right hoops, it isn't a legal strike, it's being absent without leave. Puts you at risk of disciplinary action or dismissal.

Join at your own risk.

Completely agree I am learned enough to know that striking without first satisfying the relevant legal provisions is simply being AWOL and leaves one open to the risk of dismissal especially if in an industry with weak unions .

But lets hypothetically say 90%(or more) of the countries workers across all industries walked out on one day .

What could actually be done . Yes sure all employers would be entitled to take disciplinary action which depending on employment contract could include dismissal . But would this be a wise move for 90% of the workers in the country ?

What companies can really afford to dismiss everyone and hire a whole new workforce . And given that 90% of workers engaged in this action chances are you would end up hiring someone who was dismissed for exactly the same reason you have just dismissed a whole work force .

Would this even be in the governments interests given the cost of unemployment both in terms of the welfare bill and in terms of the costs to rehiring public sector staff ?

And actually in some cases dismissal could lead to further union action if the response went further than the customary response at present . For example at my workplace the usual action taken for a first time AWOL offence is at most a first written warning . So if employees at my workplace did engage in this illegal action and our employer tried to dismiss anyone (unless previously warned for AWOL) this could give rise to a dispute between my employer and our union for departure from customary disciplinary procedure .

By the way it is not necessary to point out the various reasons why it is highly unlikely that 90% of the countries work force will walk out at once I understand the 101 reasons this would never actually happen . But seeing as this thread is full of hypothetical questions I thought I would pose my own .
 

Oswyntail

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2009
Messages
4,183
Location
Yorkshire
There must be someone willing to receive engagement but the Government have no interest in engaging on anything, especially industrial relations! ...
Sadly, at least in areas I have seen for myself, it has been the Government seeking to engage, and the unions, generally, refusing. At first, though without the Opposition admitting it, there was good and fruitful engagement over the Health act - the process of refining it was used well on all sides. There was even co-operation in the early stages of the work on junior doctors. Then, almost overnight, co-operation was withdrawn, and proposals that had been drawn up together were branded as "unacceptable". Since then it has generally only been the Government that has made concessions. That is not union engagement. I see much the same trajectory among the Teachers. I do not know why - in those areas this government has actually been one of the least intransigent in recent history.
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
12,395
Location
Caerphilly
If a strike is called in protest against Government policies, i.e. austerity measures as opposed to a workplace strike, wouldn't it be a political strike which I didn't think were legal.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
26,839
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
There must be someone willing to receive engagement but the Government have no interest in engaging on anything, especially industrial relations! Their idea of engagement is the Trade Union Bill.



So you aren't prepared to debate your views or ideas? There is, to extend your suggestion, little point discussing anything at all! :roll:

I understand that lowering yourself to discuss matters of the hoi polloi must be dreadfully distasteful. However I would urge you to climb down from your ivory tower and try to see the argument from the other side. Walk a mile in their shoes and understand their position. You may find it invigorating!

All I did was to make a solitary statement that I had a feeling that this current Government would take no notice of a 24 hour co-ordinated union action.

From what you say, I must take it that what I did without fully entering into the debate goes against the protocol of this website.
 
Last edited:

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
24,745
Location
Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
Sadly, at least in areas I have seen for myself, it has been the Government seeking to engage, and the unions, generally, refusing. At first, though without the Opposition admitting it, there was good and fruitful engagement over the Health act - the process of refining it was used well on all sides. There was even co-operation in the early stages of the work on junior doctors. Then, almost overnight, co-operation was withdrawn, and proposals that had been drawn up together were branded as "unacceptable". Since then it has generally only been the Government that has made concessions. That is not union engagement. I see much the same trajectory among the Teachers. I do not know why - in those areas this government has actually been one of the least intransigent in recent history.

Sadly, the governments idea of engagement seems different to that of normal people. They want bodies simply to rubber stamp their proposals.

That, at least, is the view from my side having seen and been involved with my unions attempts to "engage" with the government on various matters. They simply didn't want to know unless it is to agree with them.

There are two main issues for both sides:

1) Trust - No one trusts a Tory and the Tories don't trust the unions to be anything other than militant ( 1970/80's views)
2) Pantomime - both sides have to be seen to act out the parts their members expect and people NOT aware that is what is going on.

I have always found an open, honest (if difficult) dialogue to be better at sorting out issues. That is my approach to the negotiations I undertake as part of my (volunteer) union role. Areas of difference can then be worked on directly.

However, both sides have to be prepared to do that and if they are solutions can usually be found that can keep each party happy. That doesn't mean everything ends perfectly but all sides get a result they can sell to their members.


On education I feel the forced acadamisation proposals will not go down well. They are seen as pandering to Tory donors, forcing change for the sake of change, of not being supported by detailed evidence of the promised substantial performance improvement and seeking to remove national collective pay bargaining as academy teachers are outside the currently agreed negotiation structure.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If a strike is called in protest against Government policies, i.e. austerity measures as opposed to a workplace strike, wouldn't it be a political strike which I didn't think were legal.

whilst all theoretical no one is going to ask for a vote on such a strike. It might get tacked on the end of a current industrial dispute mind ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
All I did was to make a solitary statement that I had a feeling that this current Government would take no notice of a 24 hour co-ordinated union action.

From what you say, I must take it that what I did without fully entering into the debate goes against the protocol of this website, so to put matters right, I will now strike-through all the postings that I have made upon this thread prior to this one and offer my most sincere apologies to all contributors to this thread.

that is just the on line version of having a strop and taking your ball home! It is fine if you dint want to debate but you cant expect people with a different view not to challenge your perception of an issue.

Without that how do we know who is right? How do we test our own position? In the absence of a debate we must both assume we are right. ;)
 

theblackwatch

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2006
Messages
10,457
I think it's safe to assume Paul thinks the unions should do nothing. If I've got that wrong, please say so...
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
26,839
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
That is just the on line version of having a strop and taking your ball home! It is fine if you didn't want to debate but you cant expect people with a different view not to challenge your perception of an issue.

Without that how do we know who is right? How do we test our own position? In the absence of a debate we must both assume we are right. ;)

I am very deeply saddened that my most sincerely meant apology has been construed as something masquerading as an ulterior motive, when nothing of the sort was so intended....:roll:
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
26,839
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
I think it's safe to assume Paul thinks the unions should do nothing. If I've got that wrong, please say so...

I make no such assumption nor have I expressed such an opinion.

The only comment that I made on this thread was a simple comment that this present Government will take no notice of any 24 hour co-ordinated Trades Union action.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top