Getting off a stop early on an advance

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YorkshireBear

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Now i know the rules on this, you cant do it.
But let me ask anyway.

I have a return from chapeltown (sheffield) to dawlish warren. I was going to go to a campsite in dawlish warren, i now want to go to one in starcross, so i would be getting off a stop early, but not on the reserved part of my journey it would be on the unreserved last leg on fgw local train. Where do i stand? or do i just go for an extra walk or fork out for a taxi.
 
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errata

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I am also interested in whether this is realistically enforced, for example stopping/starting short on connections to/from reserved mainline services -- for example Merseyrail or the St Ives Branch.
 

LexyBoy

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If the destination isn't barriered then of course you'll get away with it - and Starcross is pretty small. I would expect quite a few guards on the local would be fine with it too if asked. I can't advise chancing it though as it could end up rather expensive and is as you know against the rules. But asking can't do any harm, if you're ok with the answer being "no".

I'm guessing that you'll be changing at Exeter, in which case a single from there to Starcross would arguably be valid for ending at Starcross. Or travel back from Dawlish if timings suit.
 

cuccir

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@YorkshireBear it has, in the past, been suggested that buying a ticket from your end point to your stopping short point (eg Dawlish Warren to Starcross) would be a way of doing this with a clearer conscience - effectively, you're paying to come back to Starcross from Dawlish Warren, but then not actually undertaking the journey. You're still breaking the terms and conditions of the Advance ticket, but it makes it nigh on impossible to be caught and also seems to be a reasonable way of dealing with the situation.

A recent thread about Megabus tickets - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=68753 - covered many of the broader points about stopping/starting short. The terms and conditions are clear that this is not allowed. In practice, particularly on branch lines or where changing trains, they are either unenforceable or actively not enforced.
 

yorkie

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You've answered your own question. It's not officially allowed. But you are not, in my opinion, breaking conditions if you act in accordance with staff instructions. So if you ask the guard if it's okay to get off one stop early, the worst that can happen is they will say "no".
 

richw

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is there any chance of a manual barrier at starcross? I'd buy a dawlish- starcross single just to be safe
 

dzug2

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Starcross is an unstaffed halt - no ticket office, no machine, nothing.
 

RPI

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Starcross is blocked on occasions in the mornings when the colleges are in but not now, The Warren is blocked most days during the summer. I really can't see any Exd guards, RPI's or ATE's having a problem with you doing this, i know most of the guys and girls down there and common sense prevails in great quantities!
 

calc7

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Its after school holidays and i arrive about 2pm.

I'm not really sure what answer you are looking for? None of us are going to endorse it, but, as already mentioned, it is highly likely you will "get away with it".
 

YorkshireBear

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I'm not really sure what answer you are looking for? None of us are going to endorse it, but, as already mentioned, it is highly likely you will "get away with it".

That comment was in response to school holidays always ticket checkers at dawlish warren comment. And college at starcross.

The answer i was looking for is the one i have got, just ask and youll probably get away with it.
 

ng1980

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I thought starting and stopping short was fine on all except Megatrain tickets.

Can somebody please post the full rules for those of us who are interested in learning?

Thank you.
 

NSEFAN

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ng1980 said:
I thought starting and stopping short was fine on all except Megatrain tickets.

Can somebody please post the full rules for those of us who are interested in learning?

Thank you.

You can't stop short of Advance tickets (you can on Anytime, Off Peak and Super Off Peak I believe). You also must travel on the train the ticket is booked for, so you cannot break your journey except for changing from one booked train onto another. I think the Megatrain tickets count as a type of Advance fare.

There have been cases of people made to buy brand new tickets, and they stopped short and by definition did not have a valid ticket for their journey.

Whether this is fair or not is another matter, but that's how the situation is right now.
 

calc7

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I thought starting and stopping short was fine on all except Megatrain tickets.

Can somebody please post the full rules for those of us who are interested in learning?

Thank you.

This text is from the previous fares round but I don't think the wording has changed.

General Conditions for this Ticket Type
ADVANCE & ADVANCE FIRST CLASS

Ticket:
Ticket Class: STANDARD
Ticket Name: ADVANCE
Single/Return SINGLE
Validity:-
Date and time shown on
accompanying reservation.
Break of Journey: NO (See
notes below)

...

BREAK OF JOURNEY:
Customers may not start,
break and resume, or end their
journey at any intermediate
station except to change to/
from connecting trains as
shown on the ticket(s) or
other valid travel itinerary.
 

Butts

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Well I broke a journey on an Advanced First Class Fare from Middlesbrough to Falkirk Stations last week.

I got off in Linlithgow to catch a Bus back to Falkirk.

The reason I did this was because the East Coast Service was late into Edinburgh which meant I missed the Dunblane Train connection to Falkirk Grahamston. I caught a Glasgow service which would have gone to Falkirk High but this is alot further from where I live. Hence I got off in Linlithgow.

This was late at night and I was aware it has no barriers or RPI's.

Would anyone condemn this action ?
 

DeeGee

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Can I ask a question on the back of this?

I have an advance Grimsby Town - Alnmouth

Via Crosscountry Trains and other TOC connecting services
Valid only on your chosen service. Not refundable. Changeable prior to date of travel for a fee.

There are reservations for all three legs of the journey. Grimsby-Doncaster, Doncaster-Durham, Durham-Alnmouth

Is the reservation on First Transpennine binding, or can I get an earlier train to give me time to go shopping at Sainsbury's in Doncaster?
 

yorkie

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You are not allowed to break your journey on an Advance ticket. Sainsbury's at Doncaster [[stn]DON[/stn]] is outside station premises, therefore it would be breaking your journey to go there.

If you want to take an earlier TPE train to ensure you make your connection, ask the guard - it's at their discretion. The official National policy is that you may not take an earlier train if it is reserveable (as described in the Advance Fares FAQs), however TPE have a policy of allowing travel on reasonable, appropriate connecting services.

The rules say that you may not break your journey "except to change trains" but changing trains is not breaking your journey, so that does raise the question of whether or not you are allowed to exit the station to do shopping (a break of journey) when you are changing trains, if time permits. It is unclear if that is what is intended or not.

But it does not appear to be permitted to travel earlier in order to give yourself time for a shopping trip that requires a break of journey!
 

LexyBoy

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Is the reservation on First Transpennine binding, or can I get an earlier train to give me time to go shopping at Sainsbury's in Doncaster?

You must use the booked train if you have a reservation for it. (In some cases you can persuade the journey planner to put you on a non-reservable train for connections, but as all trains are TPE this is not possible for your journey).

Moreover, you are not allowed to break your journey, so even if you got to Donny earlier you'd not be allowed to leave the station.
 

DaveNewcastle

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. . . . . . it has, in the past, been suggested that buying a ticket from your end point to your stopping short point (eg Dawlish Warren to Starcross) would be a way of doing this with a clearer conscience - effectively, you're paying to come back to Starcross from Dawlish Warren, but then not actually undertaking the journey.
I agree.
The special circumstance that arises when a passenger holds the additional ticket for the "doubling back" journey to Starcross is that they have put the Railway Companies under an obligation to convey the passenger to that station. This is in contrast to the passenger's obligations, which does not include the duty to travel at all.
Once the first train arrives at Starcross, there is a hypothetical opportunity for a discussion in which the passenger asks the contractor if they, the Train Operator, wishes to enforce the Condition of the Advance ticket and then convey the passenger back again. The Train Operator would incur unneccessary liability in conveying the passenger over that 'doubling back'. However, as the passenger has already been conveyed to their contracted destination, then the Train Operator has discharged its obligations and can agree to terminate the contract at Starcross. I believe that the passenger is under no more of an obligation to make that additional journey to Dawlish and back than they are under any obligation to have boarded that train at Chapeltown, Sheffield.
 

hairyhandedfool

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....There have been cases of people made to buy brand new tickets, and they stopped short and by definition did not have a valid ticket for their journey.

Whether this is fair or not is another matter, but that's how the situation is right now.

Indeed, a condition of the advance fare, in relation to changing journey plans, is that the Advance fare has no value after the first reserved train has departed, so any excess under NRCoC Condition 16 would be the fare for the entire journey.

....The rules say that you may not break your journey "except to change trains" but changing trains is not breaking your journey, so that does raise the question of whether or not you are allowed to exit the station to do shopping (a break of journey) when you are changing trains, if time permits. It is unclear if that is what is intended or not....

It never occured to me that "you cannot break your journey except to change trains" might possibly mean "you cannot break your journey except to change trains and do some shopping while you're at it", that opens up a whole host of opportunities for the cunning traveller!!
 

MichaelAMW

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It never occured to me that "you cannot break your journey except to change trains" might possibly mean "you cannot break your journey except to change trains and do some shopping while you're at it", that opens up a whole host of opportunities for the cunning traveller!!

I must say that I'd always assumed that the wording was specifically to allow that - not to allow for shopping trips per se, but to avoid you being "trapped" in the station when you have a long wait for your connecting service. You could even argue that it is of no consequence whether you break your journey as the principal matter is that you travel on the trains specified.
 

LexyBoy

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Changing trains isn't a break of journey, so the wording appears to be explicitly allowing BoJ at stations where you change trains.

Unless of course it's just sloppily written and the intended meaning is "break of journey is not permitted (but you are allowed to change trains to complete your journey rather than sit on the same train for the rest of eternity)" :D

I know which interpretation I believe...
 

WelshBluebird

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I must say that I'd always assumed that the wording was specifically to allow that - not to allow for shopping trips per se, but to avoid you being "trapped" in the station when you have a long wait for your connecting service

Especially when you consider a lot of the cheapest advance fares involve long overnight waits.
 

ng1980

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You can't stop short of Advance tickets (you can on Anytime, Off Peak and Super Off Peak I believe). You also must travel on the train the ticket is booked for, so you cannot break your journey except for changing from one booked train onto another. I think the Megatrain tickets count as a type of Advance fare.

There have been cases of people made to buy brand new tickets, and they stopped short and by definition did not have a valid ticket for their journey.

Whether this is fair or not is another matter, but that's how the situation is right now.

This text is from the previous fares round but I don't think the wording has changed.

General Conditions for this Ticket Type
ADVANCE & ADVANCE FIRST CLASS

Ticket:
Ticket Class: STANDARD
Ticket Name: ADVANCE
Single/Return SINGLE
Validity:-
Date and time shown on
accompanying reservation.
Break of Journey: NO (See
notes below)

...

BREAK OF JOURNEY:
Customers may not start,
break and resume, or end their
journey at any intermediate
station except to change to/
from connecting trains as
shown on the ticket(s) or
other valid travel itinerary.

Thank you very much, NSEFAN and calc7.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Changing trains isn't a break of journey, so the wording appears to be explicitly allowing BoJ at stations where you change trains....

Explicitly? Are we reading the same conditions?

....Unless of course it's just sloppily written and the intended meaning is "break of journey is not permitted (but you are allowed to change trains to complete your journey rather than sit on the same train for the rest of eternity)" :D....

Sloppily written? or confirming that changing trains at the booked place is not forbidden?

....I know which interpretation I believe...

And the other is probably correct.

Especially when you consider a lot of the cheapest advance fares involve long overnight waits.

Leaving a station to use overnight accommodation is not a break of journey, in fact, on many stations, the staff will ask you to leave so they can lock up.
 

yorkie

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Changing trains isn't a break of journey, so the wording appears to be explicitly allowing BoJ at stations where you change trains.

Well, changing trains is not a break of journey. Leaving the station (except to get a train from another station and/or under instruction from rail staff and/or if you cannot complete your journey that day) is breaking your journey. So saying you are not allowed to break your journey except to change trains does appear to allow people to leave station premises while changing trains (e.g. some people may use this opportunity for a smoke e.g. Butts ;))

However I think that if someone said they wanted to get an earlier train specifically go to shopping, that's not permitted. But if they happened to have a long connection time and wanted to do some shopping while they're there, that does appear to be permitted.

Of course it's all open to interpretation, and it is not often that the rules will be strictly enforced to the letter, but we are not in the business of advising people to break rules just because they will probably get away with it. As always if you are unsure, you can always ask staff permission and most staff will allow requests that are reasonable!
 

Slough

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This is ridiculous , for example
I book an advance ticket from east Croydon to eastbourne on a 9.30 train for example . I plan to meet my friend at Eastbourne .

I board the train at east Croydon , my friend rings me and says they are in Lewes can I meet them there instead .
Now according to the rules I can't end my journey at Lewes even though I have paid the fare upto Eastbourne and the train I am on stops at Lewes.
 

Butts

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Well, changing trains is not a break of journey. Leaving the station (except to get a train from another station and/or under instruction from rail staff and/or if you cannot complete your journey that day) is breaking your journey. So saying you are not allowed to break your journey except to change trains does appear to allow people to leave station premises while changing trains (e.g. some people may use this opportunity for a smoke e.g. Butts ;))

:( This is very true Yorkie - unless of course I am in Scotland.

Seriously though I often do this at Darlington whilst enroute from Edinburgh to the NE England. I ask the staff if I can get through the barrier to have a smoke and have never had a problem.

Point being I could easily never return from my "smoke":p
 

LexyBoy

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My point was that changing trains isn't a break of journey according to the NRCOC, so either the Advance terms are using "break of journey" inconsistently, or they permit leaving the station at stations where you change.

I suppose you'd argue that if the "except to change trains " was omitted then people would claim they couldn't leave their first train ever?

Obviously it's a clarification but as it's redundant it's open to misinterpretation (not that I think anyone would genuinely read it as permitting BoJ at interchanges).
 
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