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Getting people back on trains as lockdown eases.

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Killingworth

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Did Chesterfield-Cheltenham today on XC. Very lightly loaded in both directions. 9 coaches going south, HST 7 coming back. Heavy emphasis on complying with regulations on signage and announcements. Alienated my companion from the start with our reserved seats being windows and not together. Needless to say we ignored that and I sat by the aisle and wasn't challenged. The cost would put me off doing that again, never mind Covid!
 
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Mugby

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The train manager on the Avanti 1A35 upon departure from Runcorn has just announced, “You will be fined if you don’t wear a mask on board or on mainline stations. Fines have been issued on board and on stations in the last 24 hours.” Cheery. The trains I’ve been on today have been noticeably busier, and good to see.

I had a similar thing on an XC service last Saturday, the Tm announced: "You must wear a face covering, BTP are boarding trains at random stations and issuing on the spot fines to anyone who is not complying"

It seems that some on train managers can say whatever they like and the operators are quite happy to let them. If there has to be an announcement, it should be a uniform one which must be adhered to, not ad-libbed on the whims of individuals.

In a similar vein, all the monitors at Peterborough last weekend were showing 'Keep your travel to a minimum'

You really do get the feeling that you're just not welcome on trains at the present time!
 

Jamesrob637

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The train manager on the Avanti 1A35 upon departure from Runcorn has just announced, “You will be fined if you don’t wear a mask on board or on mainline stations. Fines have been issued on board and on stations in the last 24 hours.” Cheery. The trains I’ve been on today have been noticeably busier, and good to see.

Same thing more or less, as on a Manchester to London Avanti on Wednesday.

Fortunately I was only travelling as far as Stockport!
 

_toommm_

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A nice semblance of normality on my Northern train this evening. No parts of the train taped off, and interestingly, the guard was sat in the rear coach in amongst the passengers for the journey (except when opening the doors).
 

trebor79

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Train back from London late afternoon yesterday was full and standing. Just like old times except for the daft masks on people's faces.
Interestingly the demographic has completely changed. Previously it was three quarters business people. Yesterday it was three quarters people on their way home after a day out.
 

Ianno87

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Train back from London late afternoon yesterday was full and standing. Just like old times except for the daft masks on people's faces.
Interestingly the demographic has completely changed. Previously it was three quarters business people. Yesterday it was three quarters people on their way home after a day out.

Don't necessarily be fooled by what people are wearing - with office attendance down, traditional office attire is out of the window to some extent. That, plus office workers increasingly dress down on Fridays anyway.
 

Bikeman78

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Train back from London late afternoon yesterday was full and standing. Just like old times except for the daft masks on people's faces.
Interestingly the demographic has completely changed. Previously it was three quarters business people. Yesterday it was three quarters people on their way home after a day out.
I went on the 1713 Liverpool Street to Southend the other day, an eight car 321. From Stratford, 65-70% of the seats were taken in the third coach. There were a few standing but it seems that we are getting to the point that people will sit next to someone rather than stand. If the work from home advice is ditched on the 19th then I expect the numbers will go up again.
 

trebor79

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Don't necessarily be fooled by what people are wearing - with office attendance down, traditional office attire is out of the window to some extent. That, plus office workers increasingly dress down on Fridays anyway.
I had lunch at Canary Wharf. The place was dead as a dodo and there appeared to be hardly anybody in any of the office tower blocks. But yes, the person we met for a business lunch was more casually dressed than I'd expected.
I went on the 1713 Liverpool Street to Southend the other day, an eight car 321. From Stratford, 65-70% of the seats were taken in the third coach. There were a few standing but it seems that we are getting to the point that people will sit next to someone rather than stand. If the work from home advice is ditched on the 19th then I expect the numbers will go up again.
Yes, on my way in I was sat at a table working on my laptop, sans mask, and a group of three older (masked) people came and sat quite happily on my table.
 

TPO

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It will be interesting to see the way the rail unions approach restrictions easing.

The continued use of masks on public transport (but not anywhere else) will send out the continued message of "not safe here!" which in turn may well discourage passengers.

If the TUs are pro keeping all the COVID restrictions on public transport AND the govt let the train companies do this, the TUs should be very worried....... especially as govt also not against working from home where possible.

Thing is, if passenger numbers remain low and people choose car over train, what message is that sending to a govt which historically is pro-car and less enthusiastic about trains? I am wondering if it means less subsidy to passenger services and rail in general- which in turn is likely to lead to job loses in passenger sector. Of course the inevitable strikes will play into the hands of the govt then.

The TUs really seem unable to see the wood for the trees, seem so enthusiastic about keeping a quasi-communist regime on the trains that they forget about the impact on long-term traveling habits (and sunk costs, once people have a car they are more likely to take the car than the train in many cases). Get people accustomed to using their cars for leisure and only in the office a couple of days a week then demand will continue to fall.

If I were a govt wanting to slim down the subsidised passenger sector whilst letting unsubsidised rail freight to grow, I'd be leaving restrictions on public transport too.

TPO
 

trebor79

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It will be interesting to see the way the rail unions approach restrictions easing.

The continued use of masks on public transport (but not anywhere else) will send out the continued message of "not safe here!" which in turn may well discourage passengers.

If the TUs are pro keeping all the COVID restrictions on public transport AND the govt let the train companies do this, the TUs should be very worried....... especially as govt also not against working from home where possible.

Thing is, if passenger numbers remain low and people choose car over train, what message is that sending to a govt which historically is pro-car and less enthusiastic about trains? I am wondering if it means less subsidy to passenger services and rail in general- which in turn is likely to lead to job loses in passenger sector. Of course the inevitable strikes will play into the hands of the govt then.

The TUs really seem unable to see the wood for the trees, seem so enthusiastic about keeping a quasi-communist regime on the trains that they forget about the impact on long-term traveling habits (and sunk costs, once people have a car they are more likely to take the car than the train in many cases). Get people accustomed to using their cars for leisure and only in the office a couple of days a week then demand will continue to fall.

If I were a govt wanting to slim down the subsidised passenger sector whilst letting unsubsidised rail freight to grow, I'd be leaving restrictions on public transport too.

TPO
Do the staff actually want to wear masks and have passengers wear masks? In the period when they were mandatory for passengers but not staff, I don't think I saw a single staff member wearing one. Which suggests to me that most of them would prefer not to wear them, and by extension couldn't care less if passengers wore them or not.
 

TPO

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Do the staff actually want to wear masks and have passengers wear masks? In the period when they were mandatory for passengers but not staff, I don't think I saw a single staff member wearing one. Which suggests to me that most of them would prefer not to wear them, and by extension couldn't care less if passengers wore them or not.

Possibly not, but equally rhetoric and political position of the TUs does not always reflect what the rank and file staff think......... (I know it should but in the real world etc etc etc).

The Labour and TUC position is still pro restrictions (assuming the TV news is to be believed) and of course TFL want to retain restrictions too, but that could play right into the hands of a govt which wants to change the costs and structure of the railways.

TPO
 

VauxhallandI

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Get the staff in FFP3 masks - hey presto problem solved; no masks for passengers and Union happy. They can stay masked forever.
 

island

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Do the staff actually want to wear masks and have passengers wear masks? In the period when they were mandatory for passengers but not staff, I don't think I saw a single staff member wearing one. Which suggests to me that most of them would prefer not to wear them, and by extension couldn't care less if passengers wore them or not.
On-duty public transport staff have not at any stage been legally required to wear masks in England.
 

24Grange

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Thameslink's from Baldock to KX fairly quiet - most people wearing masks.
Also took a Moorgate - Stevenage at about 17:00 last week, rammed full to standing, 3/4 people wearing masks, everyone got off at Palmers Green? Train was then empty ( except me) to Stevenage. First time I'd used the new platform - very swanky !
 
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philosopher

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According to the Department for Transport website, National Rail use has been falling week on week for the last few weeks. National Rail use this year peaked at 55% for the week ending 13th June but fell to 53% for the week ending 20th June and fell further to 50% for the week ending 27th June. Tube use seems to be holding up a bit better. It was at 48% of normal for the week ending 30th May, but for the five weeks since it has fluctuated between 45% and 47% and does not seem to be showing any trend either up or down.

I suspect the increase in Covid-19 cases over the past few weeks has led to this drop, both due to increased numbers self isolating and some people being more worried about catching Covid-19. The poor weather of recent weeks could also be factor.
 

Peregrine 4903

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According to the Department for Transport website, National Rail use has been falling week on week for the last few weeks. National Rail use this year peaked at 55% for the week ending 13th June but fell to 53% for the week ending 20th June and fell further to 50% for the week ending 27th June. Tube use seems to be holding up a bit better. It was at 48% of normal for the week ending 30th May, but for the five weeks since it has fluctuated between 45% and 47% and does not seem to be showing any trend either up or down.

I suspect the increase in Covid-19 cases over the past few weeks has led to this drop, both due to increased numbers self isolating and some people being more worried about catching Covid-19. The poor weather of recent weeks could also be factor.
Doesn't national rail usage generally drop anyway during the summer as people go off work and stuff like that. Also, the weather has been pretty poor recently. I wouldn't be surprised if this week there was an increase again though, with all the football. Ultimately at the minute I'm not really sure much can be put into the figures as they are going to fluctuate massively up and down, and we can only really start to analyse properly post July 19th.
 

Ianno87

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According to the Department for Transport website, National Rail use has been falling week on week for the last few weeks. National Rail use this year peaked at 55% for the week ending 13th June but fell to 53% for the week ending 20th June and fell further to 50% for the week ending 27th June. Tube use seems to be holding up a bit better. It was at 48% of normal for the week ending 30th May, but for the five weeks since it has fluctuated between 45% and 47% and does not seem to be showing any trend either up or down.

I suspect the increase in Covid-19 cases over the past few weeks has led to this drop, both due to increased numbers self isolating and some people being more worried about catching Covid-19. The poor weather of recent weeks could also be factor.

Does support my theory that we're at "peak leisure" whilst most sporting events and hospitality still have restrictions, and people are still slightly wary of busy places etc etc.

Hopefully there'll be an uptick starting in September as education returns again, and there starts to be a (probably slow-burn) return of office workers.
 

philosopher

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Doesn't national rail usage generally drop anyway during the summer as people go off work and stuff like that. Also, the weather has been pretty poor recently. I wouldn't be surprised if this week there was an increase again though, with all the football. Ultimately at the minute I'm not really sure much can be put into the figures as they are going to fluctuate massively up and down, and we can only really start to analyse properly post July 19th.
Poor weather is probably a factor. With the tube, the weekend of the 12th and 13th June, which had very good weather in London had use at 55%, while the weekend of the 3rd and 4th July, which had quite poor weather only had use at 47% of normal. However during the week use on the tube seems to have been fairly static at 42% to 43% over the last few weeks. The decline in National Rail use however has occurred both during weekends and weekdays.
 

Watershed

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According to the Department for Transport website, National Rail use has been falling week on week for the last few weeks. National Rail use this year peaked at 55% for the week ending 13th June but fell to 53% for the week ending 20th June and fell further to 50% for the week ending 27th June. Tube use seems to be holding up a bit better. It was at 48% of normal for the week ending 30th May, but for the five weeks since it has fluctuated between 45% and 47% and does not seem to be showing any trend either up or down.

I suspect the increase in Covid-19 cases over the past few weeks has led to this drop, both due to increased numbers self isolating and some people being more worried about catching Covid-19. The poor weather of recent weeks could also be factor.
It's quite clear that the recovery in passenger numbers is mainly down to leisure passengers. So when the weather is worse, and it's not half term/summer, obviously you'll get fewer passengers.
 

Bald Rick

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Other factors are the easing of lockdown and the football. When the May 17th stage 3 happened, people could meet others in their homes for the first time in a while, and stay overnight. So people did - in droves; seeing old friends, family, etc. Also many more leisure attractions opened. Thus a big surge in leisure travel in the few weeks after, helped by people taking time off work, half term and the good weather. After a few weeks of that people have done what they needed to, and are now back to ‘normal’. Expect this to pick back up again in a couple of weeks, as schools start breaking up and people take more time off.

Re the football - no doubt in my mind that with the football on people are more likely to stay local with friends rather than pursuing other activities, and thus leisure travel will fall - albeit only by a few %.
 

Killingworth

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Commuting and business travel in the north seems to be extremely subdued. In the last week I've observed station car parks. Their use may offer a better guide to likely regular revenue than anecdotal reports of numbers on specific trains.

At Chesterfield station parking is expensive, and there are other parks nearby, but on weekdays the 283 spaces might be almost full pre-Covid. This week I'd not put it over 25% of normal numbers.
Dronfield has a nominal 50 spaces although almost half is currently cordoned off. Many rail users would park free on surrounding roads to avoid the £2 charge, but the 8 I counted on Thursday was less than half normal numbers.
Dore & Totley's free car park takes 129 and pre-Covid possibly 100 more parked nearby. It may look fairly full but only about 30-40 are parking for trains. Customers at the neighbouring restaurant and beauty salon businesses are capitalising on the empty space!
At Disley rail users' cars used to spill over into the Rams Head pay and display car park next door, the 25 station free spaces not being enough. The new free P&R 25 space car park was empty yesterday with only 9 in the old 25 spaces.
Prestbury is a small station but the car park is said to take 40. I counted one on Monday!
Adlington, Cheshire station approach road seems to hold about 15, but there were only 4 on Monday.

I couldn't judge other station car parks very well as we passed on this week's journeys but none looked anywhere near capacity.

Two TPE trains I've used previously between Dore and Piccadilly used to be very busy, standing and doing contortions to get in, but that was in 2019 when run with 3 coaches. On Wednesday they both had 6. The 8.15 towards Manchester was very lightly loaded and the 17.18 return was much the same.

On Friday EMR's 15.51 Liverpool - Norwich had standing room only after leaving Dore - but it had 2 coaches instead of 4. That one was always busy on a Friday. Cancellations and short forms distort perceptions of traffic.

The point is that big numbers of commuters are not returning, in reality hardly anyone has returned for months. Fewer shop workers are returning to work, or shoppers to visit those that are left.

A very small crumb of local cheer. I'd say slightly more Sheffield bound commuters are returning than those to Manchester - but we had twice as many going 40 miles as we had going the 4 into our own city centre! That won't significantly help rail finances.

Until the all clear sounds for a full return to unmasked work and travel the railways can do very little to get business back. A government that wanted to get us out of cars and onto public transport has been working overtime to achieve the opposite - very successfully. Resources need be rebalanced and that will mean some very unpalatable choices being faced.
 

Jamesrob637

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Commuting and business travel in the north seems to be extremely subdued. In the last week I've observed station car parks. Their use may offer a better guide to likely regular revenue than anecdotal reports of numbers on specific trains.

At Chesterfield station parking is expensive, and there are other parks nearby, but on weekdays the 283 spaces might be almost full pre-Covid. This week I'd not put it over 25% of normal numbers.
Dronfield has a nominal 50 spaces although almost half is currently cordoned off. Many rail users would park free on surrounding roads to avoid the £2 charge, but the 8 I counted on Thursday was less than half normal numbers.
Dore & Totley's free car park takes 129 and pre-Covid possibly 100 more parked nearby. It may look fairly full but only about 30-40 are parking for trains. Customers at the neighbouring restaurant and beauty salon businesses are capitalising on the empty space!
At Disley rail users' cars used to spill over into the Rams Head pay and display car park next door, the 25 station free spaces not being enough. The new free P&R 25 space car park was empty yesterday with only 9 in the old 25 spaces.
Prestbury is a small station but the car park is said to take 40. I counted one on Monday!
Adlington, Cheshire station approach road seems to hold about 15, but there were only 4 on Monday.

I couldn't judge other station car parks very well as we passed on this week's journeys but none looked anywhere near capacity.

Two TPE trains I've used previously between Dore and Piccadilly used to be very busy, standing and doing contortions to get in, but that was in 2019 when run with 3 coaches. On Wednesday they both had 6. The 8.15 towards Manchester was very lightly loaded and the 17.18 return was much the same.

On Friday EMR's 15.51 Liverpool - Norwich had standing room only after leaving Dore - but it had 2 coaches instead of 4. That one was always busy on a Friday. Cancellations and short forms distort perceptions of traffic.

The point is that big numbers of commuters are not returning, in reality hardly anyone has returned for months. Fewer shop workers are returning to work, or shoppers to visit those that are left.

A very small crumb of local cheer. I'd say slightly more Sheffield bound commuters are returning than those to Manchester - but we had twice as many going 40 miles as we had going the 4 into our own city centre! That won't significantly help rail finances.

Until the all clear sounds for a full return to unmasked work and travel the railways can do very little to get business back. A government that wanted to get us out of cars and onto public transport has been working overtime to achieve the opposite - very successfully. Resources need be rebalanced and that will mean some very unpalatable choices being faced.

I couldn't have expressed this better myself had I tried. Just a very small thing to add: EMR have once again and until autumn a few gaps in their hourly service in addition to stuff often running as 2-car instead of 4.
 

LowLevel

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Ultimately though until the work from home guidance is lifted you won't know how the cards will settle for the white collar workers. There has been a slow return for a bit of business travel of late, more suits and laptops.
 

yorksrob

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I've read recently that rail travel has been at around 55% of 2019 levels. That already puts us above the level at privatisation when it was politically unacceptable to make precipitous and irreversible cuts. The political argument needs to be made to ensure that such cuts remain politically unacceptable.
 

Ianno87

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I've read recently that rail travel has been at around 55% of 2019 levels. That already puts us above the level at privatisation when it was politically unacceptable to make precipitous and irreversible cuts. The political argument needs to be made to ensure that such cuts remain politically unacceptable.

55% of journeys. Not 55% of revenue.
 

yorksrob

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55% of journeys. Not 55% of revenue.

Fundamentally it's a political decision, not a financial one just as it has always been.

Our purpose is to make it politically more difficult for the wrong decision to be made.
 

Bikeman78

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I couldn't have expressed this better myself had I tried. Just a very small thing to add: EMR have once again and until autumn a few gaps in their hourly service in addition to stuff often running as 2-car instead of 4.
Someone told me yesterday that there are some class 156 in store at Barrow Hill. Is this true? It's perverse that most trains were four car to Liverpool when no one was travelling but many are now short formed and full. Same applies to the Valleys of course. Last year almost everything (apart from Radyr to Coryton) was four cars and I could have a Pacer to myself!
 
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