Glasgow - Mallaig (no through Advance available)

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greyman

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I want to travel one way Glasgow to Mallaig. Can I use an advance single ticket, Glasgow to Oban (which is cheaper than an advance single Glasgow to Crianlarich); make sure I'm in correct part of train at Crianlarich where train splits; and continue to Mallaig with an advance single for Crianlarich to Mallaig.

I assume this is interpreted as 'break of journey' even though I will not leave the station at Crianlarich (or even the train, other than to make sure I am on the correct part of it). If yes, is this enforced when a train splits?

Thanks for any help
 
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Well technically, by the ultimate definition of the rules, you are finishing short of destination, which as seen has had consequences in the past, however, I really really don't think its likely to in this situation!
 

PaxVobiscum

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I want to travel one way Glasgow to Mallaig. Can I use an advance single ticket, Glasgow to Oban (which is cheaper than an advance single Glasgow to Crianlarich); make sure I'm in correct part of train at Crianlarich where train splits; and continue to Mallaig with an advance single for Crianlarich to Mallaig.

I assume this is interpreted as 'break of journey' even though I will not leave the station at Crianlarich (or even the train, other than to make sure I am on the correct part of it). If yes, is this enforced when a train splits?

Thanks for any help
Sometimes it's not cheaper to split. I found Advance GLQ-MLG for £15.10 in May (as against £9.40 GLQ-OBN and £12.30 CNR-MLG), but perhaps your travel dates/railcard would change that.
 

greyman

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Sometimes it's not cheaper to split. I found Advance GLQ-MLG for £15.10 in May (as against £9.40 GLQ-OBN and £12.30 CNR-MLG), but perhaps your travel dates/railcard would change that.
Thanks for this. Yes, checking either side and these fares are available - but unfortunately not on my date in May (Thu 10/05). Only £30.70 Advance GLQ-MLG.
 

clagmonster

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I believe that it is intended that such a combination is not valid. However, condition 19 states:
"19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
...
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
...
You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of
a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10)."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Clearly, the train stops at Crianlarich so you are OK there. Your journey is from Glasgow to Mallaig, you have two tickets which cover your whole journey. You are intending to travel on the booked train throughout, and are complying with any routeing restrictions. The one remaining question is, are you breaking your journey at Crianlarich? I do not believe so as you do not leave railway premises.

Note that the above is only my interpretation of the conditions, others, possibly including Scotrail revenue staff, may either agree or disagree. I am not a railway employee or a legal professional.
 
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yorkie

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Thanks for this. Yes, checking either side and these fares are available - but unfortunately not on my date in May (Thu 10/05). Only £30.70 Advance GLQ-MLG.
Just get an Advance from Dalmuir, £14.70 from there to Mallaig on all trains (0839, 1242 and 1838). Glasgow Cen/Qst - Dalmiur is only £3.20 for an Anytime Day Single.
 

Indigo2

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Thanks for this. Yes, checking either side and these fares are available - but unfortunately not on my date in May (Thu 10/05). Only £30.70 Advance GLQ-MLG.
That isn't an Advance; it's an Anytime Day Single. Is there something on in Mallaig that day? Looks like there has maybe been a block put on Advances from Glasgow to Mallaig being sold, but (in fact maybe because of that) there is still quota available on the trains, allowing advances with different origin/destination stations to be sold for those trains.

yorkie's advice above is very good, and cheaper than the Oban option. Whilst I agree with clagmonster that it's technically not breaking your journey and you are always covered by a valid ticket and therefore probably allowed, you'd want to be careful that you didn't get the same person checking your ticket either side of Crianlarich. They mightn't like what you're doing if there's been a block put on Glasgow - Mallaig Advances on purpose, and the Oban solution might be seen as dubious. On the other hand, splitting at Dalmuir is very obviously within the rules and they can't argue with that.
 

greyman

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That isn't an Advance; it's an Anytime Day Single. Is there something on in Mallaig that day? Looks like there has maybe been a block put on Advances from Glasgow to Mallaig being sold, but (in fact maybe because of that) there is still quota available on the trains, allowing advances with different origin/destination stations to be sold for those trains.

yorkie's advice above is very good, and cheaper than the Oban option. Whilst I agree with clagmonster that it's technically not breaking your journey and you are always covered by a valid ticket and therefore probably allowed, you'd want to be careful that you didn't get the same person checking your ticket either side of Crianlarich. They mightn't like what you're doing if there's been a block put on Glasgow - Mallaig Advances on purpose, and the Oban solution might be seen as dubious. On the other hand, splitting at Dalmuir is very obviously within the rules and they can't argue with that.
Sorry, should have made clear *only ticket available* on 12.42 Glasgow to Maillaig on 10/5 is Anytime Single for £30.70.

Perhaps not blocked but Advance tickets sold out? I know that several people including myself will be travelling to Maillaig on 10/5 as it's one of the start points on west coast of Scotland for TGO Challenge setting off next day.

Thanks very much everyone for the help!
 

OwlMan

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I believe that it is intended that such a combination is not valid. However, condition 19 states:
"19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
...
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
...
You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of
a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10)."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Clearly, the train stops at Crianlarich so you are not OK there. Your journey is from Glasgow to Mallaig, you have two tickets which cover your whole journey. You are intending to travel on the booked train throughout, and are complying with any routeing restrictions. The one remaining question is, are you breaking your journey at Crianlarich? I do not believe so as you do not leave railway premises.

Note that the above is only my interpretation of the conditions, others, possibly including Scotrail revenue staff, may either agree or disagree. I am not a railway employee or a legal professional.
However there are exceptions allowed in the introduction of the NRCoC for some types of reduced and discounted fare tickets where the relevant condition(s) specifically allow them to do so which may or may not apply to Advance tickets

When you buy a ticket to travel on the National Rail Network you enter into an agreement with the Train Companies whose trains you have the right to use. That agreement gives you the right to make the journey or journeys between the stations or within the zones shown on the ticket you have bought. These Conditions are also part of that agreement and they apply to all domestic (noninternational) journeys by scheduled passenger trains of the Train Companies on the National Rail Network.
It is a condition of the Passenger Licence granted to each Train Company by the Office of Rail Regulation that these Conditions apply to tickets sold for journeys involving its services and those of other Train Companies. There is a list of the Train Companies in Appendix C.
These Conditions set out your rights and any restrictions to those rights. The Train Companies may give you more extensive rights than those set out in these Conditions and, if they do so, these may be found in each Train Company’s Passenger’s Charter or other publications. Details of where you can find this information will be available when you buy your ticket. The Train Companies may not give you less extensive rights, except in the case of some types of reduced and discounted fare tickets where the relevant condition(s) specifically allow them to do so. These Conditions set out the minimum level of rights you are entitled to expect. A Train Company’s ticket sales staff will give advice about tickets, and any restrictions concerning their use, on an impartial basis unless the point of sale is dedicated to the sale of one Train Company’s tickets
 

clagmonster

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Appendix A defines Conditions:
"(c) “Condition(s)” means these National Rail Conditions of Carriage"
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Therefore, the relevent Condition from the NRCoC must give the companies permission to give less extensive rights. Condition 16 gives the companies permission to prohibit break of journey, but I that is not really relevent because I am arguing that this is not a break of journey. I don't see another relevent condition which gives permission for the train companies to give less extensive rights on this matter.
 

OwlMan

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Appendix A defines Conditions:
"(c) “Condition(s)” means these National Rail Conditions of Carriage"
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Therefore, the relevent Condition from the NRCoC must give the companies permission to give less extensive rights. Condition 16 gives the companies permission to prohibit break of journey, but I that is not really relevent because I am arguing that this is not a break of journey. I don't see another relevent condition which gives permission for the train companies to give less extensive rights on this matter.
But that refers to Condition(s) with a upper case C.

Section 1(c & d) shows that the use on condition(s) with a lower case C does not refer to the NRCOC.
It also says that the ticket is issued subject to the conditions as set out in the notices and other publications issued by the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use

Each ticket is issued subject to:
(a) these Conditions;
(b) the applicable byelaws;
(c) the conditions which apply to Electronic Tickets, Smartcards, other
devices used for storing Electronic Tickets and certain types of reduced
and discounted fare tickets as set out in the notices and other publications
issued by the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use
; and
(d) the conditions set out in the notices and other publications issued by
another person if the ticket enables you to use any of their goods or
services.
As usual with ATOC the terms are never 100% clear and can be interperated in different ways.

Peter
 

clagmonster

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The only train company involved is Scotrail. In their case, the website (presumably a notice of publication) states:
"Can I break my journey? No
•You cannot break your journey other than for connectional purposes."
http://www.scotrail.co.uk/content/fares-and-tickets#advance-purchase

Arguably, even if this is a break of journey, which I think is the only sticking point, this condition allows it anyway (the passenger would, strictly speaking, have to sit in the reserved seat in the Fort Bill/Mallaig portion as far as Crianlarich), so would have to change between portions at Crianlarich.

Interesting point about the capital C, I'm not sure whether it holds, given that every defined word in Appendix A is capitalised. I do notice that in other Conditions, the word 'Conditions' is capitalised where it would not otherwise need to be so I suspect that you are right about ATOC's intention there.

From your point yesterday, I wonder how "reduced and discounted fare tickets" are defined. Arguably, adult advance tickets without a railcard discount are a full fare ticket and I have often heard them referred as such.

Greyman, like Yorkie I would advise using the Dalmuir split anyway as it is cheaper. You just happen to have opened up an interesting discussion.
 

OwlMan

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Hopefully the introduction of Smart Cards will require a complete rewriting of theNRCoC, Byelaws the Routeing Guide, Ticket TCs etc. Hopefully they will all be in one document with no contradictions:D.

 

mnbng

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I believe that it is intended that such a combination is not valid. However, condition 19 states:
"19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
...
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
...
You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of
a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10)."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Clearly, the train stops at Crianlarich so you are not OK there. Your journey is from Glasgow to Mallaig, you have two tickets which cover your whole journey. You are intending to travel on the booked train throughout, and are complying with any routeing restrictions. The one remaining question is, are you breaking your journey at Crianlarich? I do not believe so as you do not leave railway premises.

Note that the above is only my interpretation of the conditions, others, possibly including Scotrail revenue staff, may either agree or disagree. I am not a railway employee or a legal professional.
Hi Clagmonster, I am confused:

Are you saying that greyman is not OK due to point b? Can you only legitimately change from ticket A to ticket B if you are only at the destination station of ticket A as opposed to an intermediate station of ticket A? That is not how I would interpret point b.

I have just stumbled across your post as I was looking to to see if the train separates at Crianlarich as I am about to travel from London to Oban and then from Mallaig to London. The cheapest way I have come across is to buy a return ticket to Mallaig and then a single from Crianlarich to Oban. (This way round is cheaper than buying the single from Mallaig to Crianlarich). Is this not legitimate?

Thanks
 

clagmonster

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Hi Clagmonster, I am confused:

Are you saying that greyman is not OK due to point b? Can you only legitimately change from ticket A to ticket B if you are only at the destination station of ticket A as opposed to an intermediate station of ticket A? That is not how I would interpret point b.
Oops, faux pas on my part. The word 'not' should not be there. I'll correct that.
 

tony_mac

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I have just stumbled across your post as I was looking to to see if the train separates at Crianlarich as I am about to travel from London to Oban and then from Mallaig to London. The cheapest way I have come across is to buy a return ticket to Mallaig and then a single from Crianlarich to Oban. (This way round is cheaper than buying the single from Mallaig to Crianlarich). Is this not legitimate?
Without getting into the details of the analysis for (in this case, stupid) break of journey restrictions, you could buy a return to Crianlarich and get an 'over distance excess' for the return journey from Mallaig.

That won't cost any more, and doesn't involve any debate on validity.
It just wastes some of the staff's time, but they made the rules!

(In practice, nobody would notice or even care anyway)
 
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yorkie

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Agreed, however the problem with an over-distance excess is that you are supposed to obtain the excess before boarding, as otherwise the rules allow them to excess you up to the full fare.

That means faffing about at a ticket office (at a time after the original ticket was purchased, but before departure) trying to obtain the excess, and if the experience of other forum members is anything to go by that can mean waiting for several minutes only to be given some nonsensical excuses as to why it can't be done. So, you'd need to allow for plenty of time to 'shop around' to obtain the excess in case you're refused.

I don't think an excess is supposed to be sold at the same time as booking, because an over-distance excess is supposed to be for if you change your mind after buying the ticket. The only excess that appears to be available at the time the original ticket is purchased, is a change of route excess (and the entitlement to this particular excess at the time of booking is stated in the Routeing Guide).

I looked up Glasgow Cen/Qst - Mallaig Off Peak Return (SVR), this has restriction 8F and according to Avantix Traveller NFM11, I cannot see any break of journey restrictions on that ticket.
 

tony_mac

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That means faffing about at a ticket office (at a time after the original ticket was purchased, but before departure)
in this case, it is the return that would need the excess. (London to Crianlarach return, single to Oban, excess return from Mallaig)


However, I'm not sure what the procedure is for dealing with leaving early when there is (purported to be) a no-ending early restriction, when the ticket bought is more expensive.

As far as I can see, the NRCoC suggests that you would have pay a zero excess anyway.
 
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