Glasgow Subway trains first in UK to run with no staff on board

[PaxVobiscum]

This surprised me when I read it. Not sure that it's such a good idea from the passengers' point of view.

Glasgow Subway will be the first in the UK to run with no staff on board, The Scotsman has learned.

Operator Strathclyde Partnership for Transport (SPT) has previously announced that the trains would be driverless, but has now confirmed that no other staff will routinely ride in the carriages either.

The Unite union, which represents staff, has raised safety concerns. SPT said staff would be kept on the busiest trains, which will also be fitted with CCTV for the first time.

The new fleet will be unlike trains on other UK underground lines with no drivers, such as on the Docklands Light Railway in London which has on-board staff to operate the doors. It is part of a £288 million overhaul of the Subway – the biggest for nearly 40 years.

Read more at: https://www.scotsman.com/news/glasg...in-uk-to-run-with-no-staff-on-board-1-4652242

 

[gordonthemoron]

are the trains computer controlled or driven remotely by humans (like Nuremburg u-bahn)?

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Happy to be corrected, but I seem to remember from 1979 that even the present stock is computer controlled and capable of driverless operation, and that a compromise was reached with unions that the drivers would start the train and the the rest would be automatic.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Happy to be corrected, but I seem to remember from 1979 that even the present stock is computer controlled and capable of driverless operation, and that a compromise was reached with unions that the drivers would start the train and the the rest would be automatic.

You're right. The 'driver' does nothing apart from start it. Everything else is computerised and automatic. God knows how the DLR has managed to be driverless for so long. (yes I know there is a member of staff on board)

 

[Tubeboy]

From what I’ve read, onboard the Subway it will be completely unattended. The exception will be in the peaks.

 

[Domh245]

I thought that this (UTO) had been common knowledge since the new trains were announced way back in 2016

 

[matt_world2004]

How do they mitigate against passenger train interface issues?

 

[ooo]

How do they mitigate against passenger train interface issues?

Platform edge doors? They're often used on automated systems

 

[matt_world2004]

Platform edge doors? They're often used on automated systems

They protect little against trapped clothing. There was also the case of a child on the jubilee that got trapped between the train door and ped.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I thought that this (UTO) had been common knowledge since the new trains were announced way back in 2016

It has been, but it's come around again because of another big press release from SPT.

Back in 2016 it was certainly heavily implied that the trains would retain a staff member on board, in a similar role to the staff on DLR. It seems that has changed.

Given that stations have to be staffed at all times due to fire regulations, I'm amazed that staff-free trains are allowed. It leaves me very uncomfortable. It's unlikely anything will ever go wrong but, if it does, there really does need to be someone about to co-ordinate things. The problems faced by the Dubai Metro when it first opened prove that much.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Platform edge doors? They're often used on automated systems

The platform edge doors will only be half-height, so are unlikely to help with things like bags becoming trapped.

Staff-free trains leave me feeling very nervous, it has to be said.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do staff free lifts in tall buildings also make you nervous out of interest?

 

[NSEFAN]

They protect little against trapped clothing. There was also the case of a child on the jubilee that got trapped between the train door and ped.

Do you have an information about that incident? I've googled a bit and haven't found any information about it. There is a mention in a FOI request which mentions various incidents, but these mostly seem to be people being hit/trapped by the doors, but either on the platform or the train, but not getting stuck in between.

The platform edge doors will only be half-height, so are unlikely to help with things like bags becoming trapped.

Staff-free trains leave me feeling very nervous, it has to be said.

Only half height with unmanned operation? Sounds very dodgy to me!

 

[NSEFAN]

Do staff free lifts in tall buildings also make you nervous out of interest?

Lifts will re-open doors if they detect an obstruction even before closure. The lift won't close the doors until the blockage is cleared. On a train, doors need keep closing even if someone is blocking them, as otherwise they'd never close on a packed train and it would never be able to depart. Lifts don't normally have the burden of a schedule to deal with.

In most cases a lift can also only drag you to the ceiling before injury can occur, whilst people trapped in train doors can easily be dragged along the whole platform and into the tunnel, unless the PEDs cover the whole train and not only the lower half.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do we know that there won’t be dispatchers?

 

[rebmcr]

The 'driver' does nothing apart from start it. Everything else is computerised and automatic. God knows how the DLR has managed to be driverless for so long. (yes I know there is a member of staff on board)

I was on board a crowded DLR train a few months ago which came to a stop too soon at a station and failed to 'dock' with the platform sensors location. The train captain had to slowly make his way through the crowds and use the unit-end emergency doors, eventually reaching the front driving console to draw forward manually.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Do staff free lifts in tall buildings also make you nervous out of interest?

As in lifts without an attendant, or lifts in buildings without any staff?

In the latter case, I tend to use the stairs. But lifts are slightly different, in that if something goes wrong, it is unlikely that I'll be trapped more than a few feet from the nearest point of help. Or dragged behind a train at 30mph.

The Kings Cross fire showed us why underground stations need to be staffed. Even relatively minor incidents on the tube, such as a smoky equipment on the Central Line at Holborn, have shown the benefit of having staff about to control things.

 

[AlterEgo]

Lifts will re-open doors if they detect an obstruction even before closure. The lift won't close the doors until the blockage is cleared. On a train, doors need keep closing even if someone is blocking them, as otherwise they'd never close on a packed train and it would never be able to depart. Lifts don't normally have the burden of a schedule to deal with.

In most cases a lift can also only drag you to the ceiling before injury can occur, whilst people trapped in train doors can easily be dragged along the whole platform and into the tunnel, unless the PEDs cover the whole train and not only the lower half.

I reckon you need to look at Liveleak to see how bloody dangerous lifts can be.

The leading predators of humans in China are escalators and lifts.

I’d wager there have been a similar number of people killed by lifts in Britain than by PTI incidents over the last ten years.

 

[NSEFAN]

Do we know that there won’t be dispatchers?

What would be the point of replacing on train staff with dispatchers on the platform? In the off peak the number of trains vs stations on the Glasgow Subway wouldn't make for many savings in staff wages. Or do you mean dispatch controlled via CCTV from a control centre?

I reckon you need to look at Liveleak to see how bloody dangerous lifts can be.

The leading predators of humans in China are escalators and lifts.

That's true, although I'm going off my own experience with lifts in the UK, which tend to be quite safe. My point was more that methods of working for lifts and metro trains aren't the same, mostly because the train has time pressure to get moving but the lift does not.

 

[Hapless]

Happy to be corrected, but I seem to remember from 1979 that even the present stock is computer controlled and capable of driverless operation, and that a compromise was reached with unions that the drivers would start the train and the the rest would be automatic.

Current trains are ATO (when working) with the drivers doing the doors. Also manually driven in and out of the system.

New trains have a temp drivers cab and will have a driver until platform doors are installed. They will be able to come out of the system unattended as well, only requiring manual driving when going to and from workshops. All great in theory, but done on a shoestring budget when you consider the 280 million includes 15 station refurb, new signalling system, new control room, test track, new cctv system, stabling area to be adapted, platform screen doors, tunnel improvement works, rail renewal, new train wash....... and we still haven't got to the trains yet!!!

 

[Stompehh]

There are many metros around the world which already run in this way.

The Toulouse metro line A runs at intervals of <2mins, with 2 cars currently being extended to 4 as it is incredibly busy. There are no staff on the trains, the platforms, or often anywhere in the station. There are a mixture of full-height and half-height PEDs. It has operated safely in this manner since 1993.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Lausanne Metro is similar (though it is in practice more like a rubber tyred airport shuttle).

One thing that every unstaffed metro I've seen has that Glasgow presumably won't have is a side platform throughout including outside stations meaning there can always be a safe evacuation from the passenger doors which is effectively no different from leaving at a station?

Is the plan to use dispatchers at all times? If so the door issue isn't an issue.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Budapest metro line 4 is totally staff-less.

 

[Robertj21a]

There are many metros around the world which already run in this way.

The Toulouse metro line A runs at intervals of <2mins, with 2 cars currently being extended to 4 as it is incredibly busy. There are no staff on the trains, the platforms, or often anywhere in the station. There are a mixture of full-height and half-height PEDs. It has operated safely in this manner since 1993.

Yes, agreed. It's difficult to see what all the fuss is about.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I suppose that it depends on your definition of a 'train'. Plenty of funicular railways in GB have operated without any on-board staff from inception.

Yes, I know that they are 'like lifts' to a degree.

The Never-stop Railway at the Wembley Empire Exhibition in 1924-25 also ran without staff on board.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I reckon you need to look at Liveleak to see how bloody dangerous lifts can be.

The leading predators of humans in China are escalators and lifts.

China does not operate anything like the health and safety standards that the UK does. I don't think I ever heard of someone being killed in a lift or on an escalator in the UK, and if there was I suspect they just fell down the latter like they could have done a flight of regular stairs.

I’d wager there have been a similar number of people killed by lifts in Britain than by PTI incidents over the last ten years.

Quite possibly, but both are rather near zero. The obsession about PTI incidents is because the railway culture is to pursue absolute safety (nothing necessarily bad about that in and of itself) and we have by and large stopped trains hitting other trains so we have to move onto something else.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You're right. The 'driver' does nothing apart from start it. Everything else is computerised and automatic. God knows how the DLR has managed to be driverless for so long. (yes I know there is a member of staff on board)

I do retain the view that the DLR style of "guard only operation" will likely be the norm on things like branch lines within maybe 30 years, assuming they survive at all.

Regarding the timetable thing, does it need to operate to a timetable? Could it not instead operate to headways, so if one train is held up the others wait too?

 

[philthetube]

China does not operate anything like the health and safety standards that the UK does. I don't think I ever heard of someone being killed in a lift or on an escalator in the UK, and if there was I suspect they just fell down the latter like they could have done a flight of regular stairs.

Stirling Moss

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stirling Moss

A home lift? Possibly not maintained to the standards of a public one.

 

[gsnedders]

How many PTI incidents have other unattended metro systems in the world had? Heck, how many PTI incidents have unattended systems in the UK (like at Heathrow and Gatwick) had?