GN Class 717

TheDavibob

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The 707s were just 700s with a different colour scheme and a few less vehicles, and they didn't exactly have an easy introduction! It's also interesting to see that these will be just single units, as opposed to 2 half-units, seeing as they've only got one pantograph
Worth bearing in mind that the 700s were still having teething issues (if I recall correctly) when the 707s were introduced, though both seem to be pretty much trouble-free now. Were the 707 problems software based?

EDIT: Also, I hadn't really clocked that these will have a white front, essentially I just assumed all images were black and white, or the yellow hadn't been added. I have no problem with no yellow front, but these are the oddest I've seen, they look a little like a ghost, somehow.
 
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jellybaby

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It's also interesting to see that these will be just single units
That's one of the benefits since there isn't a lot of passenger unusable space where the middle cabs of the 313s are.

When there are service disruptions and as a result very crowded trains it isn't unusual for people to enter the middle cabs. Some drivers refuse to move until people leave while others either don't notice or turn a blind eye.
 

Domh245

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Worth bearing in mind that the 700s were still having teething issues (if I recall correctly) when the 707s were introduced, though both seem to be pretty much trouble-free now. Were the 707 problems software based?
From memory, the 707s problems were almost entirely software based, and whilst the 700s had largely settled down, it was suggested that there wasn't that much commonality between the problems that were being faced by the two fleets, nor that much commonality between their software. It certainly doesn't disprove my point I was trying to make of just because things are similar means that they'll be need less testing and have a smoother entry into service.

That's one of the benefits since there isn't a lot of passenger unusable space where the middle cabs of the 313s are.

When there are service disruptions and as a result very crowded trains it isn't unusual for people to enter the middle cabs. Some drivers refuse to move until people leave while others either don't notice or turn a blind eye.
All entirely valid points, although I meant it in the context of the the rest of the train beyond the passenger saloon. All of the modern long fixed formation EMUs are really just two shorter ones with cabs at one end, ganways at the otheri, permanently coupled together
 

ijmad

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Also, I hadn't really clocked that these will have a white front, essentially I just assumed all images were black and white, or the yellow hadn't been added. I have no problem with no yellow front, but these are the oddest I've seen, they look a little like a ghost, somehow.
The drab colour scheme will match nicely with the dirt-covered platforms at Moorgate.
 

whoosh

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Indeed. Especially as there appears to be a cutaway moulding in the front door of the production example (in contrast to the smoothly fronted mock up), which looks like a fantastic dirt trap!
 

Bornin1980s

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Indeed. Especially as there appears to be a cutaway moulding in the front door of the production example (in contrast to the smoothly fronted mock up), which looks like a fantastic dirt trap!
Is that one reason many new trains have been ordered with black ends?

Also, the 313s have low roofs, but these trains seem to be normal height. Will they fit in all the tunnels?
 

332 > 444

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I can tell these are lower than the 700/707 trains, also seems like these have no pan wells. I await conversion to these units...
 

jon0844

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Is that one reason many new trains have been ordered with black ends?

Also, the 313s have low roofs, but these trains seem to be normal height. Will they fit in all the tunnels?
I think it has been established many times that normal trains can fit in the tunnels. Plus I'm not even sure 313s are much lower anyway.

There are some signal sighting issues to fix but the trains will fit!
 

Roast Veg

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Indeed. Especially as there appears to be a cutaway moulding in the front door of the production example (in contrast to the smoothly fronted mock up), which looks like a fantastic dirt trap!
That seems to be there to accommodate the coupling when the font folds outward. Dirt trap maybe, but a better fail safe system than expecting the coupler to retract!
 

cj_1985

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there are still people who'll claim that class 313/314/315 don't have a pantograph well.
Doesn't look like there is one... or if there is, it's hell of a shallow compared to the ones on non pep BR or post privitisation stock
 

jopsuk

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Doesn't look like there is one... or if there is, it's hell of a shallow compared to the ones on non pep BR or post privitisation stock
it's a bit shallower, as the photo posted shows. Not much though. The drain points are where classically the 315s, when neglected, grew mold/algae down the outside of the carriage.
 

transmanche

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That's one of the benefits since there isn't a lot of passenger unusable space where the middle cabs of the 313s are.

When there are service disruptions and as a result very crowded trains it isn't unusual for people to enter the middle cabs. Some drivers refuse to move until people leave while others either don't notice or turn a blind eye.
When I used to commute on 313s back in the late 1980s, the middle cabs were always made available for passenger use on six-car trains - the doors even opened just like the rest. (Obviously, the small driving compartments were locked out of use.) I learned all about how to deal with an electrocuted person from reading the posters in the guard's cab!

I never really understood why this practice was discontinued.
 

jon0844

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There are still occasional delays where drivers have to remove people from the private sections. The problem isn't as bad as it was a few years back, when it was widespread.

I wasn't aware of toilet issues (although that's a problem within the passenger areas) and would have assumed they kept things locked because for some time there were lots of splits and joins.

Today there are barely any splits and joins.
 

choochoochoo

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Anti social behaviour Inc use as a toilet is what closed the cabs.
You would've thought this behaviour wouldve encouraged Dft/GTR to put a toilet on the 717.

Outrageous that in this day and age there will be a brand new train entering service without a WC on board. Especially seeing as platform toilets on the intended routes is pretty much minimal to non-existent.
 

Ianno87

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You would've thought this behaviour wouldve encouraged Dft/GTR to put a toilet on the 717.

Outrageous that in this day and age there will be a brand new train entering service without a WC on board. Especially seeing as platform toilets on the intended routes is pretty much minimal to non-existent.
"Outrageous"? The routes concerned have coped (aside from the odd urination in a discrete spot in the train) without on-train toilets for over 40 years, most journeys being of a short distance in nature.

Remember part of the point of 717s is to squeeze as much on-train capacity as possible out of the 6-car limited Moorgate branch infrastructure. Add toilets and you'll likely *reduce* capacity compared to 313s. These trains will have to cope with growth for the next 35 years or so. Most passengers on the Moorgate would prioritise simply getting on a train over having a toilet for their short journey.
 

choochoochoo

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"Outrageous"? The routes concerned have coped (aside from the odd urination in a discrete spot in the train) without on-train toilets for over 40 years, most journeys being of a short distance in nature.

Remember part of the point of 717s is to squeeze as much on-train capacity as possible out of the 6-car limited Moorgate branch infrastructure. Add toilets and you'll likely *reduce* capacity compared to 313s. These trains will have to cope with growth for the next 35 years or so. Most passengers on the Moorgate would prioritise simply getting on a train over having a toilet for their short journey.
The needs of the travelling public have changed in 40 years. Yes, commuters would sacrifice a toilet for a short trip, but what about the other passengers who would like to use the service at other times ? Not all passengers are blessed with massive bladders and well-behaved bowels.

Not to mention that with walk-through carriages there's going to be less places discrete urination.
 

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