GN Class 717

[ijmad]

No problem. To clarify some more, they're being dragged through the tunnel by loco, not running under their own power, if that's where your source of disbelief was

Hah!

I just assumed there were complicated regulations required for trains running through the tunnel, but I guess if they're being dragged you'd just view them as 6 freight wagons.

 

[Failed Unit]

With rumours that some of the 313s may be going to someone else, I wonder if that's really true or a clever bluff on the part of the ROSCO to justify the higher fee because they're 'losing money'. Much harder to do if they were almost all destined for scrap.

If this is coming from GTRs bottom line then I have little sympathy and good on the RosCo

However if we the taxpayers are paying then I won’t be as happy.

Why the difference in opinion. GTR are mismanaging this as normal. If they take some pain they might improve their performance. If we pick up the tab GTR will never improve the management of the franchise and it sends a message out that you can charge what you like GTR won’t object as they don’t pay anyway.

 

[urpert]

Probably the only other EMU that went into the tunnel under its own power was a 319.

Plus the 374s, obviously

 

[sprunt]

Is the ROSCO leasing them the 313s the same ROSCO leasing them the 717s? If so, it seems a bit off for them to be bumping up the prices on the 313s when they haven't supplied the replacements in time. Yes, the problems with the 717s aren't directly their fault, but when you enter into a contract your client shouldn't have to suffer for the failure of your suppliers should they - and you certainly shouldn't be profiteering off the back of that failure?

Of course, if it's two different ROSCOs then fair enough.

 

[K.o.R]

Plus the 374s, obviously

Only one that wasn't specifically meant for the tunnel, I mean.

 

[samuelmorris]

If this is coming from GTRs bottom line then I have little sympathy and good on the RosCo

However if we the taxpayers are paying then I won’t be as happy.

Why the difference in opinion. GTR are mismanaging this as normal. If they take some pain they might improve their performance. If we pick up the tab GTR will never improve the management of the franchise and it sends a message out that you can charge what you like GTR won’t object as they don’t pay anyway.

I think that's very optimistic. GTR are guaranteed to keep the franchise until Thameslink is finished so the new operator gets a clear start, and are guaranteed to lose it when it's re-let. They have absolutely no reason to make any improvement whatsoever on the current situation.

 

[AlexNL]

Is the ROSCO leasing them the 313s the same ROSCO leasing them the 717s?

Nope. The 717's are provided by Rock Rail Moorgate, a consortium of Rock Rail Holdings and Aberdeen Standard Investments. The 313's are owned by Eversholt.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I think that's very optimistic. GTR are guaranteed to keep the franchise until Thameslink is finished so the new operator gets a clear start, and are guaranteed to lose it when it's re-let. They have absolutely no reason to make any improvement whatsoever on the current situation.

The DfT doesn’t judge an operator based on their previous performance, unfortunately - they ran into problems with that on WC which means that all new franchise bids are entirely based on the bid itself.

 

[Felix A]

So it seems that a bunch of the diagrams supposed to run 717s were cancelled today making it impossible to get on from Alexandra Palace onwards. You would hope GTR would have learned from last time...

That being said there was some driver taining around Hornsey EMUD and Harringay this morning

 

[samuelmorris]

The DfT doesn’t judge an operator based on their previous performance, unfortunately - they ran into problems with that on WC which means that all new franchise bids are entirely based on the bid itself.

True, but in GTR's case it's a management contract and wouldn't work quite the same way, I think it's obvious the government know GTR aren't performing acceptably and never will, but don't want to sack them off until they know all the issues are imminently resolved so whoever the new operator is doesn't end up inheriting the same bad reputation.

 

[Felix A]

Is TfL still on the table to operate GN suburban/ NCL services?

 

[Doomotron]

Plus the 374s, obviously

In fear of going off-topic, I'm pretty sure the only other one was the ICE 3.

 

[717001]

GN website has now been updated to confirm the delay until the New Year:
https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/717trains

"Since the autumn we have been undertaking operational testing of our new Class 717 trains, due to run on Great Northern services in and out of Moorgate.

The purpose of this testing is to ensure we are satisfied that they can operate safely and reliably on our network before introduction.

Since 10 December we have over 200 services across Thameslink and Great Northern routes, requiring 10 additional Class 700 trains in service on a daily basis. Siemens and our engineering team are focusing on delivering this essential requirement to support the timetable change.

We are continuing our operational testing of the Class 717 units and hope to begin their introduction into passenger service in the New Year. Look out for more updates via our twitter account @gnrailuk."

Hopefully the initial rollout will go well and they'll be able to accelerate it back onto their original schedule.

 

[03_179]

Does anyone know the unit numbers are in hot store at Dollands Moor ?

 

[bramling]

GN website has now been updated to confirm the delay until the New Year:
https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/717trains

"Since the autumn we have been undertaking operational testing of our new Class 717 trains, due to run on Great Northern services in and out of Moorgate.

The purpose of this testing is to ensure we are satisfied that they can operate safely and reliably on our network before introduction.

Since 10 December we have over 200 services across Thameslink and Great Northern routes, requiring 10 additional Class 700 trains in service on a daily basis. Siemens and our engineering team are focusing on delivering this essential requirement to support the timetable change.

This constant line about additional services and additional 700s in service is starting to grate. What they really mean is that they've finally delivered what was originally supposed to be delivered in May, nothing to brag about considering its seven months late and varying degrees of hell in the meantime.

 

[petersi]

I bet they do hope they can roll them out next year. If they are not in service by December they need a derogation of disabilities for the 313’s or fit a PIS to the 313’s

these days until a train actually enters public service any date is suspect

 

[samuelmorris]

Yes but bar anything not yet picked up in terms of driver/union satisfaction I think they are nearly there with the 717s, a large proportion of the units have been delivered and as far as I know testing is pretty much done, it's just driver training to go which is presumably hit by the same delays as the 700s' driver training. Now that the rollout of the Thameslink programme's been put on hold and the majority of the May 2018 timetable is running, I can't see that lasting too much longer. I'd be surprised if the aren't a good number in service by Easter. December for the full set should be doable.

 

[petersi]

I sure Hitachi and LNER thought the same of class 800 and Leeds for the December time table change.
Or the class 710 on the overground.

Commissioning of rolling stock seams to have become a very complicated process and until service actually start its best to be patient.

I do hope your right and they are all in service by December or even September

 

[samuelmorris]

I sure Hitachi and LNER thought the same of class 800 and Leeds for the December time table change.
Or the class 710 on the overground.

Commissioning of rolling stock seams to have become a very complicated process and until service actually start its best to be patient.

I do hope your right and they are all in service by December or even September

Quite right, but the 710s are, to my knowledge, still plagued with software that's non-functional and are still performing initial tests, not mileage accumulation ready to enter service. The 800s are having to be physically modified to rectify some fairly major shortcomings. The 717s currently have neither issue, so shouldn't be delayed too much longer, unless of course a fault like one of the above is discovered - seems unlikely at this stage.

Commissioning of new rolling stock in the UK certainly has descended into farce. Something arriving broadly as expected has gone from somewhat likely, to rather unlikely, to a guaranteed no, in the past couple of years.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Saw 717021 on test/training at Old Street heading Down last night around 10:40

 

[sprunt]

Was the trains being in service this year a franchise commitment, or just an aspiration?

 

[jon0844]

I bet they do hope they can roll them out next year. If they are not in service by December they need a derogation of disabilities for the 313’s or fit a PIS to the 313’s

these days until a train actually enters public service any date is suspect

It won't take a year to finish the extra driver training that's apparently about half a day per person, which was only needed apparently because a lot of the 717 stop boards weren't put up until fairly recently - meaning drivers hadn't properly trained on where to stop (as is my understanding, relating to brake testing).

The trains were otherwise ready to go at the start of the new timetable, or even before that. Most of the trains are delivered, so depending on the numbers when it comes to 700/717 trained drivers, the introduction should be pretty rapid.

There's NO way a single 313 will still be in operation by the end of 2019 into 2020.

 

[jellybaby]

Was the trains being in service this year a franchise commitment, or just an aspiration?

That bit of the franchise agreement is redacted.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...data/file/525766/tsgn-franchise-agreement.pdf section 6.5.

 

[jon0844]

I thought the planned introduction was from early-mid 2018 and taking place until year end (I don't have the original public roadmap to hand), but it's clear there were infrastructure issues in the tunnels to Moorgate that had to be sorted (and union approval). The introduction is obviously about more than just building new trains, and I think the trains themselves have been fine (bar the initial issue with the positioning of the shoe gear that resulted in some minor, but still serious, fires!).

With the timetable fiasco, I am sure that impacted on the 700 training programme and then the conversion course, as keeping the 313s allowed resources to be directed elsewhere to get things going. It's probably a good thing that the 313s remained in service this week, than have any 717 issues causing problems.

If you're up at night, you can see 717s working a lot at the moment and I fully expect they'll be introduced very quickly once the first ones come into service without (hopefully) any major problems.

 

[sprunt]

I thought the planned introduction was from early-mid 2018 and taking place until year end (I don't have the original public roadmap to hand)

I don't know what the internal plans were, but the public statements never went any more specific than "new trains in 2018".

 

[tofl]

I don't know what the internal plans were, but the public statements never went any more specific than "new trains in 2018".

They are not direct quotes but if you look at various industry journals online with reports of the ordering/delivery/testing of the 717s it says entering service by Jan 2019 or phased in between late autumn 2018 and spring 2019. I doubt the journalists writing that just made it up - they'll have got it from GTR. The GTR statement linked to above was a masterpiece of obfuscation.

 

[Bikeman78]

So it seems that a bunch of the diagrams supposed to run 717s were cancelled today making it impossible to get on from Alexandra Palace onwards. You would hope GTR would have learned from last time...

That being said there was some driver taining around Hornsey EMUD and Harringay this morning

I spent most of Monday travelling on the 313s. Everything ran like clockwork until the 16:50 from Moorgate failed at Grange Park. Today the 1510, 1520, 1525 and 1530 were all cancelled from Moorgate. Reasons vary from no driver, unit fault and power supply fault.

 

[jon0844]

A train broke down at Drayton Park I believe.

It does seem that 313 issues are getting worse of late. No idea if it's a reduction in maintenance because they should have been going by now, or as a result of the very cold weather that has come in the last two weeks.

Maybe it's a clever ploy to get people prepared for all the 717 problems people are saying we're going to have!

 

[Class315]

A train broke down at Drayton Park I believe.

It does seem that 313 issues are getting worse of late. No idea if it's a reduction in maintenance because they should have been going by now, or as a result of the very cold weather that has come in the last two weeks.

Maybe it's a clever ploy to get people prepared for all the 717 problems people are saying we're going to have!

There have been an array of faults on the 313's as of late, yes. However, What KX SDC used to agree on with fleet was to run them with 3 cars which seems to be a thing of the past except the booked carriage working which currently evades me as Hornsey Driver diagrams have the C/W for 717 vice 313.

I was meant to have my 717 conversion before Christmas but it has been pushed back to January sometime, as the project for the 717's is 5 months late as a result of the tripcock issues it had on it's inaugural runs. Siemens went back to the drawing board and provided three alternative tripcock/bogie set ups.

 

[rebmcr]

the project for the 717's is 5 months late as a result of the tripcock issues it had on it's inaugural runs. Siemens went back to the drawing board and provided three alternative tripcock/bogie set ups.

The delay is disheartening, but that's a stellar response from Siemens.

I can't help but imagine the equivalent from Bombardier to be "hang on 9 months while we scratch our bums and wonder why the software isn't working".