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GN Class 717

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by choochoochoo, 1 May 2017.

  1. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    I am going to take advantage of the fact the rear coach doesn’t fit on the platforms of the NCL. It won’t be as crushed as the ones that do. (At leafy around the rear cab)

    I wonder if performance falls off the cliff (again) how that will reflect on Chris Grayling and his continued protection of the franchise.
     
    Last edited: 4 Jan 2019
  2. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    Given the Seaborne Freight fiasco, he might not be around much longer anyway.

    Anyway, the rear coach DOES fit it's just a signalling/sighting issue so while they start off with the rear doors locked out, that won't happen forever. These trains must have 30-40 years to run, although I couldn't hazard a guess as to how many years it will take for the new signalling to solve the problem.

    Part of the problem is that this solution buys time for the Government to defer upgrade works. Just like bi-mode trains allows for electrification to be slowed down or paused.

    I don't see how infrastructure issues will make any difference to who is running the contract.
     
  3. Emblematic

    Emblematic Member

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    Neither evidence (none available yet) nor hope (not a line I use often) but reasonable expectation. No manufacturer of high-value products fails to learn from in-service experience of new product to improve future production. Especially true when said manufacturer has ongoing responsibility for maintenance.
    I wouldn't say there is much evidence of the 313s getting worse. They may be cutting back on the cosmetic stuff, but they seem to be holding up mechanically pretty well, just what you'd want to see for a unit nearing end of service.

    Agree - but the a train consist of two units will fail twice as often as a single unit of the same type. Statistically speaking. Hence the MTINs of short units need to be much better than longer units, to get similar train performance.

    Never fail is just an impossibility, for pretty much anything, anywhere. Even promising good availability for a completely new model type is indicative of a lack of experience, at best. The well-known bathtub reliability curve is widely applicable, as any component can suffer a manufacturing defect which shows up early in service (the unfortunately named "infant mortality" issue.) The underframe case explosion on the retractioned 455s are a great example of this - a component which is normally so reliable that no mitigation for failure was considered, unfortunately had a human-error defect introduced in manufacture.
    My take is the 700s are now in the same reliability range as what they have replaced,when looked at on a train rather than unit basis. They will likely improve further.

    No knowledge on this, but you would expect that the turn-around requirement was written into the train specification. One saving grace is that software enhancements are much easier to deploy post-introduction than hardware or electrical issues, so if it's not right on day one, a fix should be deliverable without too much disruption.
     
  4. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    Why won't the 717s fit?
     
  5. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    I wasn’t referring to this. I was referring to the fact that GTR have realistically missed another franchise commitment (to me the Fridays only Moorgate - Gordon Hill service should not be counted as a success. It is a token gesture)

    But look at the state of great northern.

    1. Badly introduced trains. 387, 700 and 717s
    2. Badly introduced timetable
    3. No useable weekend service.

    GTR can’t provide dates to fix any of these but still Grayling does nothing. Token gesture fine which is pocket change to the parent group.

    If performance falls of the cliff because they haven’t delivered the 313s hopefully this will cause more pain to Grayling.
     
  6. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    The do - but because of signal sighting issues they can’t stop in the correct place to open all the doors on the branch.
     
  7. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    The stop boards were erected, by Network Rail, late and GTR agreed that drivers would need to additional training/retraining. Should they lose the contract over this?

    Pedantic or not, they DID enter public service in 2018. And once they start, people won't care. It's not like the trains themselves are late and people are being put on buses becuase the old trains have gone.

    It makes sense to keep the 313s going a while longer if it solves rostering issues, as nobody wants delays on the December timetable that appears to be mostly working.
     
  8. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    No. They deserve to lose the contract for their failure to operate an acceptable level of service since they have took over the franchise. You and other GTR apologists always have an excuse for them but they fail in everything they attempt to deliver.

    Network rails fault. Sounds like May all over again. GTR would never have implemented the May timetable but let’s roll out the it is all network rails fault line as no-one will challenge this.

    But we have gone through this before, they fail in everything they attempt to achieve. Enter service in 2018? It shows how badly the contract was written if this can seriously be counted as a success. The measure of success should be in service on a standard scheduled passenger service not and extra. They did this with the 387 which did 2x normal timetabled return journeys Mon - Fri. This running on a special service was just a copout to take the spotligh on yet another GTR failure. But considering that the powers that still consider the weekend service as acceptable we are never going to see an improvement on great northern.
     
    Last edited: 4 Jan 2019
  9. Class315

    Class315 Member

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    But much of the delay is the fault of Network Rail, ETCS Level 2 should of been installed on the NCL and the current signalling replaced; It's late with no date of installation. The programme was halted after the initial test for infrastructure issues some of which NR refused to rectify. The 717's continued to be delivered but dates for entry into service where shelved, many drivers have had the initial conversion, refresher involving stopping on the NCL. Now the programme has been suspended.

    If ETCS Level 2 had been installed on time, I'm sure there would be no need for SDO on the NCL, nor would there be a need for the remedial works at Moorgate Platform 9.

    The training has been provided to the vast majority of drivers whom are at depots that'll sign the 717's but sign the 700's already.
     
  10. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    Thanks for the insight. So unusually not GTRs incompetence. I admit I always see the worse in them but they have made my travel much worse for years with no apologies or punishment from DfT
     
  11. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    Any chance of apologising to me for the GTR apologist remark, given you've now accepted what someone else said - even though it was just a more detailed version of exactly what I said?
     
  12. Class315

    Class315 Member

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    In regards to incompetence, I feel if GTR negotiate for the lease of the 313's to be extended, hypothetically we could be looking at a number of outcomes in regards to the service. Incompetence would of been pressing them into service but potentially having a train arrive at a reliving point where the reliving driver does not possess relevant traction knowledge and having the service fall into disarray similar to last May.

    The DFT have not granted any additional money for the upkeep of the 313's hence why they're being bodged together, prior to May as you and others maybe aware trains used to be run as 3 cars leaving a lot of the surplus stock to be worked on or sat spare. I have a soft spot for the 313's and it's sad to see them in this state but GTR can't also be fully to blame in that respect neither.
     
  13. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    Ok I was harsh with you. Most of your post with respect to GTR are to defend them. But it was disrespectful of me to dismiss your post as another GTR apologist post.

    For which I apologise.

    For interest you live at Hatfield. You travel at weekends? Do you really think GTR are doing a good job?
     
  14. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    On weekends, no. It's awful (I travel from St Albans instead, as I actually did pre GTR given Sunday has NEVER been good). In the week, I think that for the most part the service is back to where it was before May 2018. I also don't have a problem with the 700s, and have probably been unable to sit down less than 10 times in any of my travels on a 700, either on the GN side or TL side. Almost always sitting at the back of the train in first class.

    313s are around the same age as me and I'll be sad to see them go, but unless a decision was made to keep them long-term and maintain them as they once were, they're sadly only fit for scrap going forward. The lack of care inside has also made them go out rather ungracefully, having been etched and tagged terribly. It's sad, but for a lot of people it's just about something to take you from A to B and the 717s will do that much better.
     
  15. petersi

    petersi Member

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    Which may prove to be complete waste of time if the programme is suspended for several months as the drives will not have a chance to keep their traction knowledge up to date

    Does anyone if Ato is required form the May timetable change on thameslink and if it is does this mean there is no training resource for the 717 introduction
     
    Last edited: 4 Jan 2019
  16. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    717s require a 2 day conversion course if the 700 training is already done. I doubt the 717s will take that long to start and they're often out and about on test/training runs.
     
  17. John Clausen

    John Clausen Member

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    Why do they need more units to provide the same frequency as before May 2018? There are still 41 diagrams for 313s which has been the case for a few years.
     
  18. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    My understanding is the diagrams are not as efficient. They need 2 more to introduce the proposed extra Gordon Hill - Moorgate services. This will then result in changes in stopping patterns that will restore all stations to their old frequency.
     
  19. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    St Albans service is also shocking at weekends compared to pre May. Yes during the week it is about to what it was - but slower.

    Staying on the 717s. The air conditioning will be certainly welcome. As long as it is reliable which I understand it generally is on the 700s
     
  20. BowesRanger

    BowesRanger Member

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    You may be correct, but I just want to get that process started. As has been mentioned the 313s are going downhill at a rate of knots, and the passenger environment is pretty miserable now.

    Honestly I think they put a downer on my mood every morning, when I see them trundle I to the station now.
     
  21. physics34

    physics34 Established Member

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    Youll miss the softer seats
     
  22. marko2

    marko2 Member

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    Those will be the dirty, sagging, and generally full-by-the-time-get-on seats. If I manage to get on AT ALL.

    Every expense has been spared on the inside and outside of these trains for years. Witness the fact that they still have the FCC vinyl wraps on them - although some of these are white from abrasion.

    The sooner they get their appointment with the gas-axe and get reincarnated as drinks cans, the better!
     
  23. BowesRanger

    BowesRanger Member

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    The state of those seats make me cry inside!
     
  24. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    But the 'comfort' of 717 seats is enough to make some cry outside!

    This is the unfortunate nature of rolling stock upgrades, there aren't really any trains introduced these days that are objectively better than their predecessors - improvements made in some areas, downgrades in others.
     
  25. tofl

    tofl Member

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    I am sure the 717s have their drawbacks, but the layout IMO is better suited to the requirements of the service, at least during the morning and evening peaks and I think all other things being equal that significantly outweighs everything else. If you're getting on like I do at Hornsey, and sometimes getting on going home at Finsbury Park, the 313s are either extremely unpleasant or simply unboardable.
    It's frustrating that the rollout is late, but better that than a May 2018 style debacle. GTR could have handled the commucation better though - after all that their customers have been through I think they are entitled to a bit more honesty.
     
  26. BowesRanger

    BowesRanger Member

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    100% agree.

    The extra capacity and frankly a more pleasant environment is key. The seats (if I get one) will be absolutely no problem for the 20 minutes I'm on one
     
  27. absolutelymilk

    absolutelymilk Established Member

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  28. Fred26

    Fred26 Member

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    Which forum is that?
     
  29. Chris125

    Chris125 Established Member

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    It's the wnxx forum.
     
  30. Supercoss

    Supercoss Member

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    Internally some doorways have a priority seat, inward facing
    upload_2019-1-6_11-24-43.jpeg the corner of which (ouch!) is just at ‘knee/ shin’ level and if you enter and walk into saloon - whilst this adds seating capacity it prevents ‘ stand back’ space at door way - A tip up or perch seat may have been a better choice
     

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