GN Class 717

[jon0844]

when are these running passenger services to and from moorgate then?

is it still testing only right now?

Soon. Read back and you'll see why there are still a few little tweaks going on to the infrastructure that is preventing them from running in passenger service. Still plenty of ECS test runs at night.

 

[Ladder23]

Ok buddy thanks, I’ll check back a few pages and try to catch up!

 

[jon0844]

Ok buddy thanks, I’ll check back a few pages and try to catch up!

By the time you've read all the posts, the trains will almost certainly be running. Possibly with new posts about their replacement...

 

[Aictos]

Been confirmed by GTR social media team that Class 717s operating Gordon Hill/Potters Bar and all stations south will have the doors open and close automatically on the Class 717 fleet much like the Class 700s do in the TL Core.

No idea yet when full service is expected but as soon as possible, personally I can't see the GN Inners taking full advantage of the aceleration and braking improvements in the timetable until May at the earliest.

 

[petersi]

No idea yet when full service is expected but as soon as possible, personally I can't see the GN Inners taking full advantage of the aceleration and braking improvements in the timetable until May at the earliest.

Do you not mean the December 2019 time table change as you need to be sure there are no 313 ‘s in use.

 

[387star]

Been confirmed by GTR social media team that Class 717s operating Gordon Hill/Potters Bar and all stations south will have the doors open and close automatically on the Class 717 fleet much like the Class 700s do in the TL Core.

No idea yet when full service is expected but as soon as possible, personally I can't see the GN Inners taking full advantage of the aceleration and braking improvements in the timetable until May at the earliest.

700 doora don't lock automatically . All new train doors close automatically after a set time

 

[Aictos]

Do you not mean the December 2019 time table change as you need to be sure there are no 313 ‘s in use.

700 doora don't lock automatically . All new train doors close automatically after a set time

I know doors don't lock automatically unless the train crew has closed the doors or if staff use the local carriage buttons/keyholes to close carriage by carriage.

That doesn't matter though, what matters is between Gordon Hill/Potters Bar and Moorgate, the trains will pull in with doors opening as they do with Class 700s between St Pancras and Blackfriars and close when the driver presses the doors close button meaning passengers at these stations shouldn't need to wait for the door release and then have to press the door open button as the doors ought open as soon as the train stops meaning less dwell times.

I mean May because the vast majority of the fleet is already here, it's just a case of the drivers undergoing the conversion course because it should be possible to introduce one unit a week by now.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

I'm surprised it's automatic open as far north as Potters Bar and Gordon Hill. I was expecting something like auto-open on third rail only, which would make it a bit cold at Drayton Park in the winter coming out of the tunnel but otherwise help with minimising dwell time in the NCL.

 

[Ethano92]

Been confirmed by GTR social media team that Class 717s operating Gordon Hill/Potters Bar and all stations south will have the doors open and close automatically on the Class 717 fleet much like the Class 700s do in the TL Core.

Don't see why this is necessary so far out. The branches don't operate at crazy high frequencies since they need to merge together later on.

From my own observations I've noticed 313s don't take more than 2 seconds for their doors to be released whereas 700s do almost always take longer than that, sometimes much longer and I'm assuming the 717s will be like the 700s. Either way, with or without automatic doors the 717s will obviously bring great at improving loading times.

 

[jon0844]

I think the only advantage is for getting off, where people standing by the door may block the button. I have opened the doors for people many times where I'm nearer to it than others and this solves that problem. It really won't matter much for those outside the train who will be pressing the button anyway.

 

[class387]

Been confirmed by GTR social media team that Class 717s operating Gordon Hill/Potters Bar and all stations south will have the doors open and close automatically on the Class 717 fleet much like the Class 700s do in the TL Core.

No idea yet when full service is expected but as soon as possible, personally I can't see the GN Inners taking full advantage of the aceleration and braking improvements in the timetable until May at the earliest.

Will this only be at peak times or all the time? If the latter it is really unnecessary to have all the doors open at places like Hadley Wood at midday.

 

[717001]

I know doors don't lock automatically unless the train crew has closed the doors or if staff use the local carriage buttons/keyholes to close carriage by carriage.

That doesn't matter though, what matters is between Gordon Hill/Potters Bar and Moorgate, the trains will pull in with doors opening as they do with Class 700s between St Pancras and Blackfriars and close when the driver presses the doors close button meaning passengers at these stations shouldn't need to wait for the door release and then have to press the door open button as the doors ought open as soon as the train stops meaning less dwell times.

I mean May because the vast majority of the fleet is already here, it's just a case of the drivers undergoing the conversion course because it should be possible to introduce one unit a week by now.

Unfortunately I believe the requirements of the timetable planning cycle are such that the earliest we could see changes (such as the reinstatement of stops at Hatfield on those trains that miss there southbound in the evening peaks / reinstatement of services levels in the am peak for New Southgate and Oakleigh Park etc) will be Dec 2018 and that could well rely on the early stages of the rollout going well.

The end to end journey times in the various consultation rounds assumed that the 717s would be in place, so suspect that (for at least a couple of years) the main benefit of the extra performance will be around improved recovery capabilities not faster journey times.

 

[Aictos]

I'm surprised it's automatic open as far north as Potters Bar and Gordon Hill. I was expecting something like auto-open on third rail only, which would make it a bit cold at Drayton Park in the winter coming out of the tunnel but otherwise help with minimising dwell time in the NCL.

It was asked if it was used on the Moorgate branch only or if it was going to be extended to Gordon Hill and Potters Bar covering all stations in the London area with the answer all stations in the London area will have it in operation.

Will this only be at peak times or all the time? If the latter it is really unnecessary to have all the doors open at places like Hadley Wood at midday.

That wasn't explained so have no idea, I would have thought it be only in the peaks but it might be easier operational wise to just have a blanket operation covering all London zone stations.

 

[A7rud]

Could anyone please tell me which 717s were stabled at Ferme Park this morning around 0930?

 

[jon0844]

The end to end journey times in the various consultation rounds assumed that the 717s would be in place, so suspect that (for at least a couple of years) the main benefit of the extra performance will be around improved recovery capabilities not faster journey times.

While obviously desirable, trying to speed the trains up only leads to more chaos when there's disruption - especially if your improved service has now resulted in huge growth in passenger numbers.

For now I'd say the target should be to stop skipping stations wherever possible.

 

[Failed Unit]

It was asked if it was used on the Moorgate branch only or if it was going to be extended to Gordon Hill and Potters Bar covering all stations in the London area with the answer all stations in the London area will have it in operation.



That wasn't explained so have no idea, I would have thought it be only in the peaks but it might be easier operational wise to just have a blanket operation covering all London zone stations.

I would take anything posted by the social media team as a believe it when I see it. Seems a bit daft considering that off peak many stations such as Hadley wood don’t have people wanting to use every door off peak. (Although this is true at Essex road).

Considering these are air conditioned trains opening door unnecessarily will compromise the passenger environment. This was actually one of the reasons why the 313 had the buttons reinstalled in the 1990s

For me rule one of dealing with GTR. Take whatever is posted from the social media team as guidance - not fact. They get things incorrect a lot. For example the said that using the corridor connections on the 387s was unsafe. I challenged this post with their senior management with the view why is your company putting passenger at risk using them on Gatwick express. Should I be highlighting this to ORR. They responded that in the end that the social media team had posted incorrect information and they don’t use the connections because they are inept at running a TOC. (Ok they really said they haven’t trained the staff and hope to use them again in the future. Probably will be when we get someone decent running the franchise)

They frequently get things wrong about ticket acceptance on buses. When trains will stop etc. Many times since May we have seen them state train x will stop at y. Passengers on the platform report it passing non-stop. A admit it possibly was the plan but it just re-enforcing the point that what they post is often not fact.

I digress. But i will wait and see when the come into operation. I doubt the social media team have the knowledge. If they do I don’t see the benefits to opening all door all the time. A big step backwards to the 313s in the 1980s it wasn’t popular then.

To defend them. They are only as good as the information provided. (I hope they are wrong. It will make the journeys much less enjoyable on a cold winter evening or hot summer day having doors open unnecessarily - why bother with climate control?)

 

[choochoochoo]

I would take anything posted by the social media team as a believe it when I see it. Seems a bit daft considering that off peak many stations such as Hadley wood don’t have people wanting to use every door off peak. (Although this is true at Essex road).

Considering these are air conditioned trains opening door unnecessarily will compromise the passenger environment. This was actually one of the reasons why the 313 had the buttons reinstalled in the 1990s

For me rule one of dealing with GTR. Take whatever is posted from the social media team as guidance - not fact. They get things incorrect a lot. For example the said that using the corridor connections on the 387s was unsafe. I challenged this post with their senior management with the view why is your company putting passenger at risk using them on Gatwick express. Should I be highlighting this to ORR. They responded that in the end that the social media team had posted incorrect information and they don’t use the connections because they are inept at running a TOC. (Ok they really said they haven’t trained the staff and hope to use them again in the future. Probably will be when we get someone decent running the franchise)

They frequently get things wrong about ticket acceptance on buses. When trains will stop etc. Many times since May we have seen them state train x will stop at y. Passengers on the platform report it passing non-stop. A admit it possibly was the plan but it just re-enforcing the point that what they post is often not fact.

I digress. But i will wait and see when the come into operation. I doubt the social media team have the knowledge. If they do I don’t see the benefits to opening all door all the time. A big step backwards to the 313s in the 1980s it wasn’t popular then.

To defend them. They are only as good as the information provided. (I hope they are wrong. It will make the journeys much less enjoyable on a cold winter evening or hot summer day having doors open unnecessarily - why bother with climate control?)

Totally agree.

FASDO (fully automatic SDO) wasn't covered/refreshed in the 700->717 conversion course or demonstrated during 717 handling. Therefore I cannot see it being introduced anytime soon.

 

[Malcolmffc]

Totally agree.

FASDO (fully automatic SDP) wasn't covered/refreshed in the 700->717 conversion course or demonstrated during 717 handling. Therefore I cannot see it being introduced anytime soon.

If it’s automatic then surely by definition there is nothing to learn?

 

[jon0844]

For me rule one of dealing with GTR. Take whatever is posted from the social media team as guidance - not fact. They get things incorrect a lot. For example the said that using the corridor connections on the 387s was unsafe. I challenged this post with their senior management with the view why is your company putting passenger at risk using them on Gatwick express. Should I be highlighting this to ORR. They responded that in the end that the social media team had posted incorrect information and they don’t use the connections because they are inept at running a TOC. (Ok they really said they haven’t trained the staff and hope to use them again in the future. Probably will be when we get someone decent running the franchise)

Aren't most splits and joins at Cambridge now? That's a Greater Anglia station.

It was certainly wrong to say the corridor connections are unsafe though. Would have been easier to say the real reason, but I suppose they thought they weren't going to be blaming anyone by saying unsafe.. even though once you say something is unsafe you're going to have to expect further questions.

 

[Aictos]

Considering these are air conditioned trains opening door unnecessarily will compromise the passenger environment. This was actually one of the reasons why the 313 had the buttons reinstalled in the 1990s

I'm sorry to tell you this but you're actually least 2 decades out with your information about the above as the buttons were installed in the 1970s and I see no reason for them to be removed and installed again.

Foe example as sourced from

• Haresnape, Brian; Swain, Alec (1989). 10: Third Rail DC Electric Multiple-Units. British Rail Fleet Survey. Shepperton: Ian Allan. ISBN 0-7110-1760-3

As built, the sliding doors were opened by the passengers. Once the driver had stopped the train and the guard had activated the master door release, a passenger could move the door handle gently sideways which operated a switch controlling the individual door opening circuit. Many people did not wait for the guard's release and gave the handle a much harder tug, which could open the door even if the train had not stopped. Concerns over passenger safety led to the handles being replaced by push-buttons from March 1977.

 

[choochoochoo]

If it’s automatic then surely by definition there is nothing to learn?

FASDO operation requires a train to stop in a particular 'envelope' within the platform. So knowing where these 'envelopes' exactly are should be a training requirement.

Also think FASDO needs balise installations. I don't think they'll be fitted at all stations anytime soon.

 

[jon0844]

I'm sorry to tell you this but you're actually least 2 decades out with your information about the above as the buttons were installed in the 1970s and I see no reason for them to be removed and installed again.

Foe example as sourced from

• Haresnape, Brian; Swain, Alec (1989). 10: Third Rail DC Electric Multiple-Units. British Rail Fleet Survey. Shepperton: Ian Allan. ISBN 0-7110-1760-3

As built, the sliding doors were opened by the passengers. Once the driver had stopped the train and the guard had activated the master door release, a passenger could move the door handle gently sideways which operated a switch controlling the individual door opening circuit. Many people did not wait for the guard's release and gave the handle a much harder tug, which could open the door even if the train had not stopped. Concerns over passenger safety led to the handles being replaced by push-buttons from March 1977.

When 313 doors are locked, you can actually open them quite easily - as I saw a very angry person doing who wanted to board a train that had been shut down and was about to run ECS. I can only imagine how dangerous it would be if people actually used a handle on the door itself (and you can clearly see where they were when you look at the doors) as it would make it even easier to do.

FASDO operation requires a train to stop in a particular 'envelope' within the platform. So knowing where these 'envelopes' exactly are should be a training requirement.

Also think FASDO needs balise installations. I don't think they'll be fitted at all stations anytime soon.

Perhaps the social media team meant to say there's an intention to do this at some point in the future.

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm sorry to tell you this but you're actually least 2 decades out with your information about the above as the buttons were installed in the 1970s and I see no reason for them to be removed and installed again.

Foe example as sourced from

• Haresnape, Brian; Swain, Alec (1989). 10: Third Rail DC Electric Multiple-Units. British Rail Fleet Survey. Shepperton: Ian Allan. ISBN 0-7110-1760-3

As built, the sliding doors were opened by the passengers. Once the driver had stopped the train and the guard had activated the master door release, a passenger could move the door handle gently sideways which operated a switch controlling the individual door opening circuit. Many people did not wait for the guard's release and gave the handle a much harder tug, which could open the door even if the train had not stopped. Concerns over passenger safety led to the handles being replaced by push-buttons from March 1977.

Actually that is exactly what happened. They had some opening mechanism when the were introduced. This was removed fairly quickly afterwards. In the 313s no buttons existed through the 1980s and most of the 1990s. They were reinstated by the first franchises (silverlink and Wagn) in the 1990s.

The doors opened at every station until this point and WAGN made a big issue about this improvement.

I am sure the many people who actually used the route in the 1980s or early 1990s can back me up. But I know I am correct as I lived through it. If you ever use the route they were strange catches - if you look at the doors you can see where they were. (Which I assume Jon is highlighting on the post above) Photos exist but not going to look for them. You are welcome. The later peps had real buttons. The 313s didn’t.

 

[Bikeman78]

Actually that is exactly what happened. They had some opening mechanism when the were introduced. This was removed fairly quickly afterwards. In the 313s no buttons existed through the 1980s and most of the 1990s. They were reinstated by the first franchises (silverlink and Wagn) in the 1990s.

The doors opened at every station until this point and WAGN made a big issue about this improvement.

I am sure the many people who actually used the route in the 1980s or early 1990s can back me up. But I know I am correct as I lived through it. If you ever use the route they were strange catches - if you look at the doors you can see where they were. (Which I assume Jon is highlighting on the post above) Photos exist but not going to look for them. You are welcome. The later peps had real buttons. The 313s didn’t.

The 314s still don't have passenger buttons. All doors open at every station.

 

[Bikeman78]

I'm astonished that GTR runs units with the inter unit gangways locked. I can't think of any other TOC that does this.

 

[Failed Unit]

The 314s still don't have passenger buttons. All doors open at every station.

Interesting but looked at some photos, learn something new everyday. But like the any early 313 pictures no door buttons. The 315s must be the first to get the fix.

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm astonished that GTR runs units with the inter unit gangways locked. I can't think of any other TOC that does this.

Terrible customer service from a terrible operator. Apparently as they don’t have their own staff at Cambridge they can’t trust the GA staff to do it. They operate the same units on Gatwick express with them in use. They could have resolved this but now if you get on the wrong unit and want to use Ashwell and Morden you are in for a longer ride than you expected as it is not possible to correct your mistake.

 

[332 > 444]

I'm astonished that GTR runs units with the inter unit gangways locked. I can't think of any other TOC that does this.

Greater Anglia do so too apparently.

 

[superalbs]

I'm astonished that GTR runs units with the inter unit gangways locked. I can't think of any other TOC that does this.

SW 455s do too I think?

 

[grid56126]

I believe the requirement to open / close connections on 387s was aborted when it was decreed two drivers were required (by ASLEF) to meet the timings at Cambridge. I may be wrong.