GN Class 717

[APUK002]

Lack of depot space on the GN?

The only place with a bit of spare space to hold extra trains is Hertford North sidings, and by my calculations this only amounts to 3x 6-car trains - and with security risks too. Perhaps Hitchin up yard at a stretch, although no good for regular preparation, and by no means secure. One wonders if this is going to be another thing the industry are going to “own goal”? With the Thameslink shambles ongoing, perhaps it might be better to hold off the 717s for a bit.

Yes,true,there’s not much space for the 717’s yet. What was going to happen in 26th

 

[Roast Veg]

Is Hornsey really that full?

 

[332 > 444]

Yes, I don't know how long the testing will be once in the UK but once they start going into service, that's when they'll start withdrawing two sets of 313s. Oh and the fact that we need type training on them!

 

[APUK002]

Yes, I don't know how long the testing will be once in the UK but once they start going into service, that's when they'll start withdrawing two sets of 313s. Oh and the fact that we need type training on them!

Yh,someone did post the training time here. There very similar to 700’s.

 

[Class315]

Two 717’s have left Krefeld due for delivery to Hornsey, they where scheduled to be 717007&008. But it remains to be seen as the pictures I’ve seen of them in transit don’t display a TOPS number. But they’re finally coming.

 

[APUK002]

Two 717’s have left Krefeld due for delivery to Hornsey, they where scheduled to be 717007&008. But it remains to be seen as the pictures I’ve seen of them in transit don’t display a TOPS number. But they’re finally coming.

Yes, https://twitter.com/trainsferro/status/1016725339203043328?s=21

 

[jon0844]

If they put them anywhere near Hertford North, they'll soon get a yellow front.

And pink, blue, grey, black, orange...

 

[nxea321446]

Going to Three Bridges first?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97570/2018/07/10/advanced

 

[Aictos]

Lack of depot space on the GN?

The only place with a bit of spare space to hold extra trains is Hertford North sidings, and by my calculations this only amounts to 3x 6-car trains - and with security risks too. Perhaps Hitchin up yard at a stretch, although no good for regular preparation, and by no means secure. One wonders if this is going to be another thing the industry are going to “own goal”? With the Thameslink shambles ongoing, perhaps it might be better to hold off the 717s for a bit.

You might want to relook at your figures again as they don't seem to be correct...

Remember there are 4 sidings in the Up Sidings and you also have the Down Spur as well, with the following possible:

Road 1 used to take 8 car trains but was extended to 12 cars to take the Class 700 while they were being tested on the Hertford Loop.

Road 2 takes a 8 car train.

Road 3 takes a 6 car train but seems to be out of use for the time being, no idea why though...

Road 4 takes a 3 car train.

The Down Spur takes a 6 car train.

Now the main issue at Hertford is the new Class 717s are fixed formation 6 car lengths so either they extend Road 4 or they're restricted to using the other sidings which in my view takes not 3 x 6 car trains but 6 with the following stabled overnight which won't be too popular with the locals:

Road 1 in Up Yard to take 2 sets of 717s as it already takes a 12 car 700 so doubtful 2 sets would be even longer.

Road 2 in Up Yard to take 1 set of 717s (Unless it got extended to take 12 cars like Road 1)

Road 3 in Up Yard once back in use to take 1 set of 717s.

Down Spur to take 1 set of 717s.

Platform 3 being the bay platform which can take 1 set of 717s, you could terminate the 23:39 there and stable it there overnight then have it form one of the first services in the morning to London as has been done before in FCC times.

Don't forget you also have the Up Yard at Hitchin which has been used to stable stock before as well, I'm sure you could get 2 sets of 717s in there at a push.

You also can stable overnight using Platform 1 at Welwyn Garden City which takes another set of 717s to form one of the first departures in the morning.

As to security risks at Hertford well there is a answer to that and it's simply to have security down there, if Greater Anglia can do it for a preserved railway then I'm sure GTR can do the same for Hertford but seeing how they and the DfT have single handed managed to wreck both TL and GN without any help from the TL Programme, I'm doubtful!

 

[Class315]

Going to Three Bridges first?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97570/2018/07/10/advanced

Doubt it - I would be looking for a continuation of delivery headcode either a 6X70 or a 6X71 bound for Ferme Park or Hornsey. - Having a quick look their appears to be a 6X71 0314 Dollands Moor to Ferme Park.

If they put them anywhere near Hertford North, they'll soon get a yellow front.

And pink, blue, grey, black, orange...

Unfortunately it's not just Hertford that is notorious for Graffiti attacks, Hitchin Up Yard, Letchworth and Welwyn all are notorious. I wonder if the 717's will be stored in the Siemens facility at Hornsey upon arrival or the EMUD.

 

[jellybaby]

99% sure it was at Ferme Park this morning, still coupled to the containers etc. On the track furthest away from the running tracks with a couple of 700s on the tracks between.

What purpose do the containers serve?

 

[Aictos]

99% sure it was at Ferme Park this morning, still coupled to the containers etc. On the track furthest away from the running tracks with a couple of 700s on the tracks between.

What purpose do the containers serve?

They act as braking force to ensure there is enough braking power available is the quick answer.

 

[bramling]

You might want to relook at your figures again as they don't seem to be correct...

Remember there are 4 sidings in the Up Sidings and you also have the Down Spur as well, with the following possible:

Road 1 used to take 8 car trains but was extended to 12 cars to take the Class 700 while they were being tested on the Hertford Loop.

Road 2 takes a 8 car train.

Road 3 takes a 6 car train but seems to be out of use for the time being, no idea why though...

Road 4 takes a 3 car train.

The Down Spur takes a 6 car train.

Now the main issue at Hertford is the new Class 717s are fixed formation 6 car lengths so either they extend Road 4 or they're restricted to using the other sidings which in my view takes not 3 x 6 car trains but 6 with the following stabled overnight which won't be too popular with the locals:

Road 1 in Up Yard to take 2 sets of 717s as it already takes a 12 car 700 so doubtful 2 sets would be even longer.

Road 2 in Up Yard to take 1 set of 717s (Unless it got extended to take 12 cars like Road 1)

Road 3 in Up Yard once back in use to take 1 set of 717s.

Down Spur to take 1 set of 717s.

Platform 3 being the bay platform which can take 1 set of 717s, you could terminate the 23:39 there and stable it there overnight then have it form one of the first services in the morning to London as has been done before in FCC times.

Don't forget you also have the Up Yard at Hitchin which has been used to stable stock before as well, I'm sure you could get 2 sets of 717s in there at a push.

You also can stable overnight using Platform 1 at Welwyn Garden City which takes another set of 717s to form one of the first departures in the morning.

As to security risks at Hertford well there is a answer to that and it's simply to have security down there, if Greater Anglia can do it for a preserved railway then I'm sure GTR can do the same for Hertford but seeing how they and the DfT have single handed managed to wreck both TL and GN without any help from the TL Programme, I'm doubtful!

I was working on the basis that Hertford already stables 4x313 in the current timetable, so that’s 2x 717s less.

It’s all a little academic as presumably the main place they would want them to be is Hornsey, which is now rather full with 700s!

So it does seem that 717s coming in will have to mean 313s leaving sooner rather than later. Whilst this wouldn’t normally be a major issue, in the current climate it does seem to be adding another layer of risk to an already fragile and broken operation.

 

[Ianno87]

99% sure it was at Ferme Park this morning, still coupled to the containers etc. On the track furthest away from the running tracks with a couple of 700s on the tracks between.

What purpose do the containers serve?

I can confirm as have just gone past - are at Ferme Park right now.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

So it does seem that 717s coming in will have to mean 313s leaving sooner rather than later. Whilst this wouldn’t normally be a major issue, in the current climate it does seem to be adding another layer of risk to an already fragile and broken operation.

Well, only two have arrived so far; I assume for shakedown and driver training. That's not to say that any more will be arriving soon. Unlike with the 700s where they were needed for new Thameslink to function, the 313s don't need to be hurried out. I'd hope that the delivered pair will be thoroughly tested and enough drivers converted to them before any more come to Hornsey (otherwise it's just dead stock taking up space), and then it should be easy to do straight swaps from there on as confidence will have been built up.

 

[APUK002]

717007 and 008 delivered now! https://twitter.com/gnrailuk/status/1017014748473327616?s=21

 

[Fred26]

They're hidden behind a couple of 700s, but you can tell them apart as the 717s have a black front. Can't wait to see them in service.

 

[jon0844]

I saw one as I passed a few minutes ago. It's on the west side of the line but stands out because of the lack of yellow.

(yes, you read that right!)

 

[Agent_Squash]

Do the 717s have the 30mph speed limit when operating on 3rd rail?

 

[swt_passenger]

Do the 717s have the 30mph speed limit when operating on 3rd rail?

It’s been explained as a limitation of the signalling system, so yes, but only with respect to the Moorgate branch.

 

[jon0844]

It’s been explained as a limitation of the signalling system, so yes.

85mph on the Northern City Line would be fun!

 

[Agent_Squash]

It’s been explained as a limitation of the signalling system, so yes.

So they couldn't operate south of the Thames at 85mph? Just out of wonder really.

 

[Fred26]

So they couldn't operate south of the Thames at 85mph? Just out of wonder really.

They won't be going south of the Thames. They'll probably spend their life on the NCL.

 

[jon0844]

They won't be going south of the Thames. They'll probably spend their life on the NCL.

It's not the third rail bit but surely the tripcock signalling bit?

 

[XCTurbostar]

I’m guessing the commissioning and testing will take them to an introduction into service of December 2018?

 

[Agent_Squash]

They won't be going south of the Thames. They'll probably spend their life on the NCL.

It was out of wonder - I didn’t imply that they were.

 

[Fred26]

It was out of wonder - I didn’t imply that they were.

Oh no, I know.

 

[Aictos]

So they couldn't operate south of the Thames at 85mph? Just out of wonder really.

They could but as been explained before trains are restricted to 30mph on the Moorgate branch due to the signalling and so are not restricted to that speed on other 3rd rail routes.

 

[swt_passenger]

They could but as been explained before trains are restricted to 30mph on the Moorgate branch due to the signalling and so are not restricted to that speed on other 3rd rail routes.

I think this discussion also took place a few months back. Clearly other 313s operate perfectly normally on other third rail routes.

 

[jon0844]

I think this discussion also took place a few months back. Clearly other 313s operate perfectly normally on other third rail routes.

If a 700 works on third rail without doing 30mph, it's fair to say a 717 can do its max speed too. The Moorgate tunnel is a special case and it's not exactly a long way from Drayton Park to Moorgate anyway. Besides Essex Road to Old Street, the stations are pretty close together so how fast could a train get to before slowing down again?