GN Class 717

[Failed Unit]

The following services all call at Hornsey and Harringay, basically pretty much anything heading to Hertford stops at those stations while Welwyn GC doesn't

Tad stupid as Hertfords can run insulated between Finsbury Park and Stevenage and leave the WGC services to pick up those calls as they already have 2tph that only call at Hatfield and Potters Bar but also as WGC has 6tph

As you don’t use the route or understand the timetable let me enlighten you.

The faster services are banished to the slow line. If the WGC - Moorgate services stopped everywhere then the Cambridge- London service would be slowed down even more.

Examples from WGC

0709 WGC - Moorgate was 0722 WGC - London (Ex Cambridge) 1 min behind at Finsbury Park. If the 0709 stopped more then the 0722 would be even slower.

0724 WGC - Moorgate does stop at all stations south of Alexander Palace but omits Hadley Wood, Oakliegh Park and New Southgate to do so. They have a worse service than previously as a result.

The 717s will provide a new Gordon Hill - Moorgate service so the 0724 can revert to a normal pattern but it will still need to miss stations after Alexander Palace to keep out the way of the 0732.

The 717s wont help this, running the Cambridge to London on the fast south of Potters Bar may help. But I suspect no path exists.

But it is the full slow line that prevents what you suggest.

 

[Class315]

Don't know what it's like in the passenger saloon, but in the cab i feel a hell of a lot of vibration in the Watton at stone area in the up direction.

Also I suspect they'll adjust the timetable timings once the fleet is all 717s to factor in the improved performance. Which is a shame because it's nice knowing I can easily make up the lost minute here or there in a 717.

I too noticed the harsh vibrations on that straight section of track between WL1960 and the roundabout last week but thought it may have been unit specific.

For those commenting on the time taken at Drayton Park, the power changeover procedure is completely different involves lights going steady in some cases they take an age and drivers becoming familiar with an entirely new process as we've never had to change power source on a 700 on the GN as it's not needed, also for any fellow drivers out this week has anybody else noticed in the down direction the Platform Starter Signal at Drayton Park has only been displaying a yellow aspect, which means you have to crawl round to K373?

 

[choochoochoo]

I too noticed the harsh vibrations on that straight section of track between WL1960 and the roundabout last week but thought it may have been unit specific.

For those commenting on the time taken at Drayton Park, the power changeover procedure is completely different involves lights going steady in some cases they take an age and drivers becoming familiar with an entirely new process as we've never had to change power source on a 700 on the GN as it's not needed, also for any fellow drivers out this week has anybody else noticed in the down direction the Platform Starter Signal at Drayton Park has only been displaying a yellow aspect, which means you have to crawl round to K373?

Yes, I've noticed that starting signal has always been single yellow when it comes off at Drayton Park on the Down.

I've also seen the starting signal on the Up at Drayton Park come off to green before I've even stopped in the platform. Never seen that happen whilst I've driven 313s.

 

[Aictos]

As you don’t use the route or understand the timetable let me enlighten you.

The faster services are banished to the slow line. If the WGC - Moorgate services stopped everywhere then the Cambridge- London service would be slowed down even more.

Examples from WGC

0709 WGC - Moorgate was 0722 WGC - London (Ex Cambridge) 1 min behind at Finsbury Park. If the 0709 stopped more then the 0722 would be even slower.

0724 WGC - Moorgate does stop at all stations south of Alexander Palace but omits Hadley Wood, Oakliegh Park and New Southgate to do so. They have a worse service than previously as a result.

The 717s will provide a new Gordon Hill - Moorgate service so the 0724 can revert to a normal pattern but it will still need to miss stations after Alexander Palace to keep out the way of the 0732.

The 717s wont help this, running the Cambridge to London on the fast south of Potters Bar may help. But I suspect no path exists.

But it is the full slow line that prevents what you suggest.

I understand what you are saying and why but the reason for why those trains are timetabled as such is that the timetable isn't robust enough.

I mentioned about the Hertfords not calling at Hornsey or Harringay because they can use the Up and Down Slow 2 between Finsbury Park and Alexandra Palace so be insulated from any issue affecting other services between Finsbury Park and Watton At Stone (Stevenage once Platform 5 is delivered).

This can't be a bad thing, surely in the pre May 2018 timetable the 2CXXs/2PXXs used the fast lines between Hatfield/Potters Bar and Finsbury Park so what's changed?

Yes the timetable has different calling patterns in but there was nothing wrong with the pre May 2018 timetable that couldn't be used today bar sending half of the GN services though to the Thameslink.

I've no idea why the 2CXX/2PXX services have to be banished to the slow lines maybe you can enlighten me?

 

[Team Defect]

I was on that train! The extra delay at Alexandra Palace was just because the driver was "on the phone to control" - and also to let a 313 overtake us out of the station.

Suspect the original fault was a poor connection with the OHPL - as there was quite a lot of clunking above us when we were stationary!

This was not a fault with the train. It was a fault with the driver! The driver did not change over to AC correctly at Drayton Park. The train departed the station on DC and once contact with the third rail was last at the end of the platform the unit coasted to just short of K373 signal with an amber aspect. The driver then changed over to AC correctly and continued on. The driver also reported he did not receive an AWS warning as he approached K373. This was due to the unit still being in DC mode which results in the AWS receiver being set to the less sensitive state for the stronger DC lines type AWS magnets. As a result the AWS did not pick up the weaker AC type magnet for K373. Once the unit was in AC mode the AWS operated correctly.

So far nearly all the faults on 717s have been driver error. This is not meant as a dig at the drivers as they are obviously going to make the odd mistake as they get used to the new trains.

 

[Team Defect]

Drayton Park change over times will improve once Network Fail fit the transponder tag to the track to enable the 717 automatic change over. This will make the change over time the same as the 700 units at Farringdon.

 

[Aictos]

Drayton Park change over times will improve once Network Fail fit the transponder tag to the track to enable the 717 automatic change over. This will make the change over time the same as the 700 units at Farringdon.

Does this mean that instead of the driver going though the steps below, the driver just comes to a stop in the platform at Drayton Park and the unit does the changeover between the two power supplies with no driver interaction needed?

Changing from AC to DC and DC to AC:

AC (overhead wire) to DC (third rail)

1) Press the ‘Pantograph Down’ button to drop the pantograph.
2) Press the ‘Set-Reset’ button.

DC (third rail) to AC (overhead wire) 1) Lift the ‘25kV AC’ cover and press the ‘Pantograph Up’ button.
2) Press the ‘Set-Reset’ button until the line light indicator illuminates.

 

[APUK002]

Drayton Park change over times will improve once Network Fail fit the transponder tag to the track to enable the 717 automatic change over. This will make the change over time the same as the 700 units at Farringdon.

Kool info, is it known when the ‘tag’ will be fitted?

 

[Starmill]

Yet most of the demographic views of this forum would always disagree with that...

It's unclear what you think the 'demographic' of this forum is, or indeed how you know that.

...even if facts are available and show them as in the demographic views to be wrong.

This part of your sentence doesn't really make sense I'm afraid.

Some mixed evidence is available to suggest that a sample of customers who have completed a survey are slightly more dissatisfied with the seats in London Overground's rolling stock than in Thameslink's. It is very unclear what the point you're making about the 'demographic' of this forum is in relation to that fact.

Without wishing to sound unkind, I wonder if the demographic of this forum (which I suspect is male biased and nearing/over 40)

The forum's membership which regularly attends forum meets is almost exclusively male, which to be honest is something which I see as significantly sub-optimal. The reasons behind it are probably quite complex and the strategy for dealing with it is not going to be any easier here than it is anywhere else in society - but that's no excuse for not trying. However, using this metric the membership's average age (which I suppose is what you are getting at with what you say here?) is much lower than the early forties as you suggest. We don't have a lot of evidence to go on about members who have never attended a meet. I am not entirely sure what that has to do with seat comfort though if I am honest!

 

[ijmad]

I am not entirely sure what that has to do with seat comfort though if I am honest!

I was mainly thinking larger frame / stiffer knees. But I take your points on board, and haven't been to a meet up myself yet.

 

[Failed Unit]

I understand what you are saying and why but the reason for why those trains are timetabled as such is that the timetable isn't robust enough.

I mentioned about the Hertfords not calling at Hornsey or Harringay because they can use the Up and Down Slow 2 between Finsbury Park and Alexandra Palace so be insulated from any issue affecting other services between Finsbury Park and Watton At Stone (Stevenage once Platform 5 is delivered).

This can't be a bad thing, surely in the pre May 2018 timetable the 2CXXs/2PXXs used the fast lines between Hatfield/Potters Bar and Finsbury Park so what's changed?

Yes the timetable has different calling patterns in but there was nothing wrong with the pre May 2018 timetable that couldn't be used today bar sending half of the GN services though to the Thameslink.

I've no idea why the 2CXX/2PXX services have to be banished to the slow lines maybe you can enlighten me?

I don’t disagree with any of your points. In fact I can add support from a typical days working.

0722 leaves WGC late as it is delayed at Digswell. Signaller has 2 options. 1 hold the 0724 on flyover (seems to be preferred) or send it out on-time and have 0722 behind it.

Both situations result in rapid collapse of the timetable.

Why are the trains now banished to the slow? The path on the fast is taken by the Cambridge- Brighton service.

The only way they could make this work was to dump the Cambridge- Maidstone (kinds cross) on the slow. Increase the journey time and cut stops on the Moorgates. (Either Welham green and Brookmans Park or Harrengey and Hornsey). We will see if the 717s power sees an improvement. I understand the Hertford Branch isn’t that keen on the new stopping pattern either.

I don’t think the 2Pxx exists anymore. Which is another annoying fact as to travel north to Scotland us south of Peterborough need to change twice now. Which is very high risk on GTR.

 

[petersi]

According to the twitter team no more diagrams until further notice (or network rail move signals)
“We plan to stick with five 717s in all-day passenger service til our colleagues at
@networkrail
complete a signal move in late May”

[

 

[rebmcr]

According to the twitter team no more diagrams until further notice (or network rail move signals)

We plan to stick with five 717s in all-day passenger service til our colleagues at @networkrail complete a signal move in late May

Must be the limit with the number of trainees signal sighters that are available.

 

[Class315]

According to the twitter team no more diagrams until further notice (or network rail move signals)
“We plan to stick with five 717s in all-day passenger service til our colleagues at
@networkrail
complete a signal move in late May”

[

I've heard that Network Rail will complete the work over the May Bank Holiday vice the Easter period as per originally anticipated; 2G25 17:25 is at a stand at Moorgate, the fault has escalated and other services are being diverted into the cross.

Must be the limit with the number of trainees signal sighters that are available.

The initial plan was 5 units in service by the end of April, regardless of signal sighter availability.

 

[APUK002]

I've heard that Network Rail will complete the work over the May Bank Holiday vice the Easter period as per originally anticipated; 2G25 17:25 is at a stand at Moorgate, the fault has escalated and other services are being diverted into the cross.


The initial plan was 5 units in service by the end of April, regardless of signal sighter availability.

Kool. Ok thanks for sharing

 

[MML]

717015, 717021, 717023, 717024 still stabled at Cricklewood.

 

[SeaKing]

What units are still at Dollands Moor.

 

[BowesRanger]

Apparently was a failed train today on the hertford loop, anyone know whether it was a 313 or 717?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Apparently was a failed train today on the hertford loop, anyone know whether it was a 313 or 717?

Probably a 717; the 12.10 off Moorgate was cancelled and that's one of the 717 workings.

 

[jamieP]

Apparently was a failed train today on the hertford loop, anyone know whether it was a 313 or 717?

717008

 

[Peter Mugridge]

717008

Can't have been 008; that was on the 12.40 from Moorgate. The cancellation was the one half an hour earlier. Or have there been two failures today?

 

[jamieP]

Can't have been 008; that was on the 12.40 from Moorgate. The cancellation was the one half an hour earlier. Or have there been two failures today?

Seeing at the question was "Apparently was a failed train today on the hertford loop, anyone know whether it was a 313 or 717?" then it can be 717008 as it did fail on the loop. 717005 was booked on the 1210 ex Moorgate but instead ran ECS back to Hornsey and did not fail on the branch.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I was at Drayton Park from about 11.55 until 12.35 and didn't see 005 - what time was it moved?

Wondering what time 008 failed - presumably after the 12.40?

 

[jon0844]

There was a brake problem on a 717 unit. I think later on another 717 was sent to rescue what must have been a failed 717? No idea if that was the one with the brake failure earlier, but would assume so?

 

[jamieP]

I was at Drayton Park from about 11.55 until 12.35 and didn't see 005 - what time was it moved?

Wondering what time 008 failed - presumably after the 12.40?

Not a clue when 005 moved. According to Genius is arrived RT at Moorgate but didnt arrive at Hornsey Depot till 1315. 008 was terminated at Gorden Hill whilst working the 1240.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Not a good day for the 717s then...

 

[jamieP]

Just another day on the railway.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Not a good day for the 717s then...

Well I managed to go on four earlier this morning, 003/005/007/008 so there were definitely four working before 11.

 

[Class455]

Are the 717's doing any diagrams on the weekend or is it just 313's?

 

[jon0844]

No weekends yet.