GN Class 717

[Failed Unit]

I must admit it is up in the air. I wish I had downloaded the consultation timetables. Some articles suggest that the changes are pushed back a timetable release so Welwyn - Sevenoaks will happen in December along with the 2 extra peak Diagrams from Moorgate - Gordon Hill. Other articles suggest the core will never get to 24tph so Welwyn / Hatfield- Blackfriars will never be possible.

I assume the paths will need to be bid now, but GTR will remain quiet until the are approved. It will also mean they need to demonstrate they can operate them reliably.

The consultation time table never had the 717s capability planned. Not sure if it is possible to speed existing journeys up and get the Cambridge- Kings Cross trains back to 317 timings (Ie 10 mins between potters bar and Finsbury Park).

I do recall the current x02 and x32 were supposed to leave at x05 and x35 before Hadley wood was added to the stopping pattern (removed from the x24 and x54 Moorgate services)

Onto something different I don’t get why Hornsey, Harringey and Drayton Park are SDO. The first 2 the train is comfortably on the platform. The later heading north the last door is close to the steps. But with the traffic that station sees hardly dangers compared to some clearances on the tube.

 

[hwl]

I must admit it is up in the air. I wish I had downloaded the consultation timetables. Some articles suggest that the changes are pushed back a timetable release so Welwyn - Sevenoaks will happen in December along with the 2 extra peak Diagrams from Moorgate - Gordon Hill. Other articles suggest the core will never get to 24tph so Welwyn / Hatfield- Blackfriars will never be possible.

I assume the paths will need to be bid now, but GTR will remain quiet until the are approved. It will also mean they need to demonstrate they can operate them reliably.

The consultation time table never had the 717s capability planned. Not sure if it is possible to speed existing journeys up and get the Cambridge- Kings Cross trains back to 317 timings (Ie 10 mins between potters bar and Finsbury Park).

I do recall the current x02 and x32 were supposed to leave at x05 and x35 before Hadley wood was added to the stopping pattern (removed from the x24 and x54 Moorgate services)

Onto something different I don’t get why Hornsey, Harringey and Drayton Park are SDO. The first 2 the train is comfortably on the platform. The later heading north the last door is close to the steps. But with the traffic that station sees hardly dangers compared to some clearances on the tube.

717s etc - The consultation assumed Stevenage was years away from completion.
As regards the TL core services:
1. GTR need to have addressed the driver depot and 700 (GN area only) / route training issues.
2. Any more through the core is at the tipping point for ATO rollout which needs a massive training requirement itself (number of drivers in total rather than length of time /driver).

 

[sprunt]

Onto something different I don’t get why Hornsey, Harringey and Drayton Park are SDO. The first 2 the train is comfortably on the platform.

According to an answer earlier in this thread, at Hornsey it's because the platform has a narrow section at the rear of the train. This sounds like nonsense to me - nonsense from GTR that is, not the forum member who posted it! - as I noticed one morning this week that the rear door of the 717s is past the narrow section of the platform and if it's unsafe to open the rear doors of the 717s there it's equally unsafe to open the rear doors of the 313s.

 

[Failed Unit]

717s etc - The consultation assumed Stevenage was years away from completion.
As regards the TL core services:
1. GTR need to have addressed the driver depot and 700 (GN area only) / route training issues.
2. Any more through the core is at the tipping point for ATO rollout which needs a massive training requirement itself (number of drivers in total rather than length of time /driver).

Thanks

 

[Failed Unit]

According to an answer earlier in this thread, at Hornsey it's because the platform has a narrow section at the rear of the train. This sounds like nonsense to me - nonsense from GTR that is, not the forum member who posted it! - as I noticed one morning this week that the rear door of the 717s is past the narrow section of the platform and if it's unsafe to open the rear doors of the 717s there it's equally unsafe to open the rear doors of the 313s.

I read that as well and agree it sounds nonsense. Sat at the back of the train the platform at Hornsey and Harringey the platform width at the last door is wider than a stations like old street.

 

[BJames]

I read that as well and agree it sounds nonsense. Sat at the back of the train the platform at Hornsey and Harringey the platform width at the last door is wider than a stations like old street.

Completely agreed - in the rear carriage for the first time and I was astounded by how many stations had the sixth carriage locked out. Drayton Park I understood but Hornsey and Harringey, the train definitely stopped well within the platform on this occasion.

Anybody know why there are so many complaints about the saloon aircon on these units ?

Without fail, there is at least 2 complaints about it on Twitter a day. The Twitter team said the other day the self regulation of the temperature control could be affected by continual opening and closing of doors. That's a serious design oversight if that's the case.

Also curious as to know whether any of the units have had their filters inspected since entry into service. Would love to have seen what they look like after those Moorgate trips.

On 717004 towards Moorgate today, I could kind of understand why people do complain about the AC. I kind of thought that it wasn't set to the extreme cold and actually managed to maintain quite a good temperature inside the carriage but it certainly wasn't as cold as I was expecting from a new train, and my friends agreed.

On another note, pleased to see that the two 717s I have been on today have both had the PIS working perfectly and maintaining great time throughout their trips. Looking forward to some more weekend workings converting as well.

 

[Team Defect]

Completely agreed - in the rear carriage for the first time and I was astounded by how many stations had the sixth carriage locked out. Drayton Park I understood but Hornsey and Harringey, the train definitely stopped well within the platform on this occasion.


On 717004 towards Moorgate today, I could kind of understand why people do complain about the AC. I kind of thought that it wasn't set to the extreme cold and actually managed to maintain quite a good temperature inside the carriage but it certainly wasn't as cold as I was expecting from a new train, and my friends agreed.

On another note, pleased to see that the two 717s I have been on today have both had the PIS working perfectly and maintaining great time throughout their trips. Looking forward to some more weekend workings converting as well.

Talking to the Siemens lads today, the HVAC will shortly be getting a software update that will lower the saloon temperature as well as adjust a few other HVAC technical parameters.

 

[bramling]

Talking to the Siemens lads today, the HVAC will shortly be getting a software update that will lower the saloon temperature as well as adjust a few other HVAC technical parameters.

Will this include the 700s as well?

 

[BJames]

Talking to the Siemens lads today, the HVAC will shortly be getting a software update that will lower the saloon temperature as well as adjust a few other HVAC technical parameters.

Sounds good, I'm sure that would be appreciated on a day like tomorrow when the temperatures are going to be really warm!

 

[Aictos]

Will this include the 700s as well?

I hope so as it makes no sense for one subtype of what is the same design to have a update and not another!

Mind you, this should have been done weeks ago!

 

[andystock22]

Just on a class 717 and the air con is excellent while it's 30c outside!

 

[jon0844]

Will this include the 700s as well?

The driver can adjust the temperature on a 700 already, but not the 717s. Maybe the update adds the adjustment to the computer? By default it seems too warm.

 

[ijmad]

All the 717 diagrams seem to be cancelled south of Ally Pally this afternoon. Anyone know why?

 

[717001]

All the 717 diagrams seem to be cancelled south of Ally Pally this afternoon. Anyone know why?

Lots of Moorgate services cancelled this afternoon / evening due to lack of available drivers. Some Kings Cross Cambridge ones too.

 

[Class315]

717021 was returned back to Hornsey late last night from a period stabled at Cricklewood, this move means that there are no more 717's stored at Cricklewood. The unit will undergo an exam before being released for passenger service.

 

[Class315]

HE61, newest converted carriage working which commenced from the start of traffic today.

3B27 06:42 Hornsey Depot - Harringay Up Reversing Sidings
3B27 06:50 Harringay Up Reversing Sidings - Hertford North
2J27 07:32 Hertford North - London Moorgate
2V29 08:30 London Moorgate - Welwyn Garden City
2K48 09:24 Welwyn Garden City - London Moorgate
2B50 10:25 London Moorgate - Hertford North
2J65 11:30 Hertford North - London Moorgate
2V67 12:30 London Moorgate - Welwyn GC
2K80 13:28 Welwyn GC - London Moorgate
2B82 14:25 London Moorgate - Hertford North
2J09 15:30 Hertford North - London Moorgate
2V10 16:30 London Moorgate - Welwyn GC
2K31 17:28 Welwyn GC - Moorgate
2F32 18:20 Moorgate - Watton-at-Stone
5J53 19+22 Watton-at-Stone Via Langley Junction - Watton-at-Stone
2J53 19:40 Watton-at-Stone - London Moorgate
2V55 20:50 Moorgate - Welwyn Garden City
5I72 21:44 Welwyn Garden City via Welwyn Garden City reversing sidings - Welwyn Garden City
2K72 22:09 Welwyn Garden City - London Moorgate
2B74 23:10 London Moorgate - Hertford North
3D88 00+26 Hertford North - London Kings Cross
2B88 01:10 London Kings Cross - Hertford North
5E82 02:03 Hertford North - Hornsey EMUD

 

[Bikeman78]

Onto something different I don’t get why Hornsey, Harringey and Drayton Park are SDO. The first 2 the train is comfortably on the platform. The later heading north the last door is close to the steps. But with the traffic that station sees hardly dangers compared to some clearances on the tube.

Same thing happens elsewhere. Littlehaven comfortably holds nine carriages but the doors only open on the front eight cars on 377s. Not sure about the 700s.

 

[Failed Unit]

Just found this I downloaded from the railplan 2020 website - before GTR admitted that they couldn't implement it. Shame I didn't keep the timetable.

GTR Alleged

The new timetable will provide new connections and with
the introduction of the new class 717 trains, planned for
later in 2018, increased capacity.
The new Monday to Friday peak Thameslink trains
between Welwyn Garden City to Orpington will not
run through London until May 2019.
The new 717 trains will provide a metro-style layout with
more capacity, improved reliability, air conditioning and
passenger information systems that can be remotely
updated to provide real-time travel information.
These trains will be introduced towards the end of 2018
and by May 2019 will provide much needed capacity on
the route.
From May 2018
Welwyn Garden City: Off peak frequency will increase
from 3 trains per hour (tph) (weekdays) and 2tph
(weekends) to 4tph all day, all week.
Hertford North to Stevenage: To support ongoing
changes of our critical infrastructure we will run a bus
service between Watton-at-Stone and Stevenage from
December 2018. Between May and December 2018 we
will only be able to run 1tph throughout the day (down
from 2tph in the peak but at the same level for off peak).
Hadley Wood: Following feedback from the consultation
we are pleased to announce an increase in the off peak
service from 2tph to 4tph.
Hertford North: Off peak frequency will double from
3tph to 6tph all day, Monday to Saturday.
From May 2019
Extra peak services to/from Moorgate to ease
overcrowding – up to 14tph will operate in the high peak
period (up from 12tph today). Across the remaining
peak hours trains will run more frequently – up to 12tph
(currently 10tph). Additional services will run to Gordon
Hill and Hertford North.

Route information sheet: 1
Great Northern Metro
Class 717

As this was supposed to be put back 1 timetable change - then maybe we will see this in December.

However considering we are already waiting for 4tph - all day all week - don't hold your breath. Not saying we need 4tph all day - all week just that was what GTR promised us. From memory the May 2019 improvements depended on the smooth introduction of the 717s.

 

[tofl]

I don't know whether this was what was finally promised, but this link has a lot of the proposals in it: https://www.flua.org.uk/documents/GTR 2018 Timetable Consultation Phase 2 .pdf

 

[Aictos]

The driver can adjust the temperature on a 700 already, but not the 717s. Maybe the update adds the adjustment to the computer? By default it seems too warm.

Drivers can adjust the temperature on 700s?

Maybe but vast majority don’t know how to do this and only know one setting which is full heat on!

Only a very small minority actually adjusts the air con to a reasonable cool temperature, I know it is possible to adjust the temperature but hardly any drivers actually do that!

Not trying to wind up the drivers but I use the 700s daily and it’s rare occurrence for the air con to be set to cool.

Why can’t it be adjusted remotely from the depot?

 

[clockend]

Here is the original proposed Dec 18 TT for GN Metro

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't know whether this was what was finally promised, but this link has a lot of the proposals in it: https://www.flua.org.uk/documents/GTR 2018 Timetable Consultation Phase 2 .pdf

That’s absolutely valid AFAICT, it’s a mirrored copy of what was still available on the GTR site until a few days after the meltdown. Then surprise surprise they removed anything that might show up their lack of progress...

 

[717001]

Believe they are still working towards consulted timetable ultimately - but last May, delayed rollout of 717s and the engineering programmes impacting Kings Cross and Moorgate over the next couple of years are combining to push back full implementation.

Don’t think we’ll see much, if any change in Dec 2019 - but no certainty until timetables are released.

 

[Failed Unit]

Thanks all. Be interesting to see what if anything changes in December.

 

[SeaKing]

What units have worked in service so far.

 

[Class315]

717002-012, 014, 016, 018, 020, 023 have all worked in passenger service.

 

[jon0844]

Drivers can adjust the temperature on 700s?

Maybe but vast majority don’t know how to do this and only know one setting which is full heat on!

Only a very small minority actually adjusts the air con to a reasonable cool temperature, I know it is possible to adjust the temperature but hardly any drivers actually do that!

Not trying to wind up the drivers but I use the 700s daily and it’s rare occurrence for the air con to be set to cool.

Why can’t it be adjusted remotely from the depot?

Drivers won't be adjusting it often, if at all. It should be fine to set a default and leave it, but possibly on occasion there could be a benefit in allowing some adjustment.

I use 700s all the time and they're almost always very cold when it's hot and if there's any time it is warm then it is just one coach so I just walk through a bit.

Report any units on Twitter that are hot. The heating should most certainly not be on!

My guess is 700s are set to 20 or below, while the 717s try to maintain 21 or 22. Certainly not hot, but not what people expect or want (that feeling of stepping into a fridge when it is hot outside).

 

[Aictos]

Drivers won't be adjusting it often, if at all. It should be fine to set a default and leave it, but possibly on occasion there could be a benefit in allowing some adjustment.

Indeed the drivers shouldn't need to adjust the heating but they should ensure that the right temperature is set especially in warm weather.

I use 700s all the time and they're almost always very cold when it's hot and if there's any time it is warm then it is just one coach so I just walk through a bit.

I've been using the fleet regularly for 3 months now and I've only found one train that was cool throughout but had defective air con in one carriage which got reported.

As to saying that they are almost always very cold when they are hot... Sorry but the vast majority of the fleet I use daily resemble nothing like what you describe as they are almost always very hot in all weathers, I think last Saturday was the first time that I had multiple 700s that actually had air con set to a cool 18c/19c!

Even when we have so called BBQ weather, the fleet has heating on so there is a issue somewhere!

Report any units on Twitter that are hot. The heating should most certainly not be on!

I do, no idea if any notice is taken but as the driver has the ability to adjust the onboard temperature and as the fleet has remote monitoring I believe? It shouldn't be that difficult to either adjust the temperature then and there or remotely adjust the temperature from the depot.

My guess is 700s are set to 20 or below, while the 717s try to maintain 21 or 22. Certainly not hot, but not what people expect or want (that feeling of stepping into a fridge when it is hot outside).

The 700s don't feel like they're set to 20c, more like 23c/24c and I might be in the minority but when it's hot outside when you step onto a train for example and the air con makes it quite cool then it's rather refreshing and nice.

Certainly nothing like a fridge!

 

[andystock22]

GN Twitter have confirmed that there are 4 717s in service today (Saturday).

 

[bramling]

Drivers won't be adjusting it often, if at all. It should be fine to set a default and leave it, but possibly on occasion there could be a benefit in allowing some adjustment.

I use 700s all the time and they're almost always very cold when it's hot and if there's any time it is warm then it is just one coach so I just walk through a bit.

Report any units on Twitter that are hot. The heating should most certainly not be on!

My guess is 700s are set to 20 or below, while the 717s try to maintain 21 or 22. Certainly not hot, but not what people expect or want (that feeling of stepping into a fridge when it is hot outside).

The issue seems to be more on those “in between” days when outside it’s not notably hot, but equally it’s not cold either. No doubt people err on the side of wearing more layers, rather than less to cater for the possibility of temperatures dropping, and then step into the train to find it too warm. Not everyone wants to go messing around stripping layers off, and on something like a 365 this could be easily resolved by opening a window.

Having said that, 365s have their own issue with hyperactive heating, although with air flow from open windows this isn’t really a problem. Indeed 365s can be lovely in the winter with heating on and windows open.