GN Class 717

Status
Not open for further replies.

Fred26

Member
Joined
5 Mar 2010
Messages
1,017
Are service levels at weekends really only half that of the weekday levels? Seems a big difference in units required to operate the timetable
There's supposed to be 8tph (4 x WGC, 4 x HFN/SVG) on Saturdays, and 6tph (4 x WGC, 2 x SVG) on Sundays. That was 'implemented' in May last year. I think it ran okay first couple of weeks and then there were constant cancellations as drivers were moved to mainline services to try and even the misery of the new timetable.
In July the service was cut to 4tph both days, but to do that GTR simply removed some trains and left the others at the same time. That left an odd timetable with gaps of 10, 20, 10, 20. In December these 4tph were retimed to be evenly spaced at every 15 minutes.

I believe they're currently aiming for May 2020 for the reintroduction of these services.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

BowesRanger

Member
Joined
16 Jul 2018
Messages
100
This is the most important thing IMO. The seats on Desiro City units aren't great, but being able to actually catch the train you intended to trumps everything.
Yup, it's key. It's a commuter line really, not that unlike the tube. More than anything i just want to get on it. In that regard, they are a massive upgrade
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
24,467
Location
UK
Yup, it's key. It's a commuter line really, not that unlike the tube. More than anything i just want to get on it. In that regard, they are a massive upgrade
This.

I am certainly more inclined to use a 717 even when it's all stations, than wait for a faster train, than I ever was with a 313. The air conditioning proved itself in the summer, even if it wasn't as cool as a 700 (but I think that was adjusted).

313s were awful in the heat, and anyone that says you just open the windows and enjoy the breeze were misguided at best.

I'll be sad to see them go for nostalgic reasons but that's it.
 

andystock22

Member
Joined
27 Dec 2013
Messages
44
There's supposed to be 8tph (4 x WGC, 4 x HFN/SVG) on Saturdays, and 6tph (4 x WGC, 2 x SVG) on Sundays. That was 'implemented' in May last year. I think it ran okay first couple of weeks and then there were constant cancellations as drivers were moved to mainline services to try and even the misery of the new timetable.
In July the service was cut to 4tph both days, but to do that GTR simply removed some trains and left the others at the same time. That left an odd timetable with gaps of 10, 20, 10, 20. In December these 4tph were retimed to be evenly spaced at every 15 minutes.

I believe they're currently aiming for May 2020 for the reintroduction of these services.
Before they introduce 4 trains an hour at weekends they need to be able to operate a 2 trains an hour service without all the no driver cancellations, which has been an on going problem this summer on the Moorgate line.

There is no point operating a 4 trains an hour service if it's full of no driver cancellations.
 

andystock22

Member
Joined
27 Dec 2013
Messages
44
This.

I am certainly more inclined to use a 717 even when it's all stations, than wait for a faster train, than I ever was with a 313. The air conditioning proved itself in the summer, even if it wasn't as cool as a 700 (but I think that was adjusted).

313s were awful in the heat, and anyone that says you just open the windows and enjoy the breeze were misguided at best.

I'll be sad to see them go for nostalgic reasons but that's it.
If you compare a 717 with the LO 378, LO 710, LU S Stock, the 717 is a much better train.
 

Fred26

Member
Joined
5 Mar 2010
Messages
1,017
Before they introduce 4 trains an hour at weekends they need to be able to operate a 2 trains an hour service without all the no driver cancellations, which has been an on going problem this summer on the Moorgate line.

There is no point operating a 4 trains an hour service if it's full of no driver cancellations.
Quite, but at some point they're going to have enough drivers.
 

Hadders

Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
7,345
Quite, but at some point they're going to have enough drivers.
They’ve been short of drivers for the last FIVE YEARS despite telling us they’ve been operating the largest driver recruitment programme in the history of the railway.

I do wonder if GTR will ever be capable of having enough drivers, especially at weekends.
 

Mcq

Member
Joined
24 May 2019
Messages
109
If the schedule depends on overtime working, not basic hours, especially weekends and Bank holidays, then it will always suffer the HN disease of 'no driver available' when the sun comes out.
It's called Conditions of Service - or human nature if you wish.
Been a disease on the HN line for years.
 

tofl

Member
Joined
23 Nov 2018
Messages
39
I complained about the weekend cancellations recently. The inital reply was that they were sorry the service hadn't been what I was hoping for. When I pointed out taht my hopes were irrelevant and I was measuring it against their advertised timetable and presumably franchise commitment, my query was forwarded to some kind of complex query department. After some initial fobbing off telling me how many drivers they employ (what use is that information to me?) I got out of them that the driver training program was due for completion some time in September - so let's see if there is any improvement.
 
Last edited:

332 > 444

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2007
Messages
531
Location
London
I complained about the weekend cancellations recently. The inital reply was that they were sorry the service hadn't been what I was hoping for. When I pointed out taht my hopes were irrelevant and I was measuring it against their advertised timetable and presumably franchise commitment, my query was forwarded to some kind of complex query department. After some initial fobbing off telling me how many drivers they employ (what use is that information to me?) I got out of them that the driver training program was due for completion some time in September - so let's see if there is any improvement.
Which year? :lol:
 

daniel1234321

Member
Joined
3 Jan 2018
Messages
160
I complained about the weekend cancellations recently. The inital reply was that they were sorry the service hadn't been what I was hoping for. When I pointed out taht my hopes were irrelevant and I was measuring it against their advertised timetable and presumably franchise commitment, my query was forwarded to some kind of complex query department. After some initial fobbing off telling me how many drivers they employ (what use is that information to me?) I got out of them that the driver training program was due for completion some time in September - so let's see if there is any improvement.
Wouldn't get your hopes up
 

tofl

Member
Joined
23 Nov 2018
Messages
39
I am not optimistic based on the track record. I don't know enough about other TOCs to say whether this staffing problem is easily solved or not given the constraints they have to work within, though I certainly cannot remember any cancellations on the line from Hertford East due to driver shortages, and in the same period there have been countless cancellations from Hertford North.
 

Roger B

Member
Joined
16 Jun 2018
Messages
175
Location
Gatley
Observed in service yesterday afternoon at Finsbury Park between 16.30 and 18.15 were 17 different 717s: 003/4/5/6/7/9/011/3/5/7/8/9/020/1/2/4/5. In addition 010/4 plus two others were on Hornsey depot. There was also 3 pairs of 313s working - in very run-down condition.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
7,493
Location
Central Belt
This.

I am certainly more inclined to use a 717 even when it's all stations, than wait for a faster train, than I ever was with a 313. The air conditioning proved itself in the summer, even if it wasn't as cool as a 700 (but I think that was adjusted).

313s were awful in the heat, and anyone that says you just open the windows and enjoy the breeze were misguided at best.

I'll be sad to see them go for nostalgic reasons but that's it.
I am more likely to take what comes along first. But that is more because both train sets are a downgrade on previous trains. The 365s used to be reasonably comfortable but the 387, 700 and 717 have the same level of discomfort.

I do like the fact you can always look out a window on the 717s. But I still see many instances of denied boarding at Finsbury Park in the morning.

My biggest issue with the 717s are.
Seats (can be replaced)
They fact they constantly break down (hopefully can be improved - but if they 700s are used as a benchmark not for a while)

before someone says the 313s are unreliable- true because they are not maintained but even last year they were significantly more reliable than the 717s.
 

BowesRanger

Member
Joined
16 Jul 2018
Messages
100
I am more likely to take what comes along first. But that is more because both train sets are a downgrade on previous trains. The 365s used to be reasonably comfortable but the 387, 700 and 717 have the same level of discomfort.

I do like the fact you can always look out a window on the 717s. But I still see many instances of denied boarding at Finsbury Park in the morning.

My biggest issue with the 717s are.
Seats (can be replaced)
They fact they constantly break down (hopefully can be improved - but if they 700s are used as a benchmark not for a while)

before someone says the 313s are unreliable- true because they are not maintained but even last year they were significantly more reliable than the 717s.
Subjective obviously but my experience is that the service is much more reliable now than in last couple of years.. Excluding driver shortages.

The 717s arent luxurious of course, but absolutely fine for a commuter train
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
7,493
Location
Central Belt
Subjective obviously but my experience is that the service is much more reliable now than in last couple of years.. Excluding driver shortages.

The 717s arent luxurious of course, but absolutely fine for a commuter train
I am not sure if the Hertford line avoids the worse of cross importing of delays from Thameslink but i have noticed train fault delays have increased.

The toilets are an interesting debate. Some say 50 minutes is fine for a train with no toilet, which is fine. But when they break down and you are stuck on them for hours (like August) maybe the space dedicated would be worth it.

You often get “the 313s didn’t have toilets and seat back tables”. But they didn’t have air-conditioning, plugs or WiFi. So should the 717s not have had them either? (General question not specifically aimed at you)

I personally would love to see the service as dependable as it was pre May 2018. I notice GTR refuse to publish the MTIN rate for the 717 now - I wonder why?
 

03_179

Established Member
Joined
13 Aug 2008
Messages
1,570
Location
London
Yesterday I spent a day travelling around on 717s.

The Seats, although having a little extra depth in the padding, were uncomfortable after 20 minutes.


Other than that they are just like travelling on a 700 or 707.
The very annoying ankle height metal area by the window seats can really be awkward. It is on the 700s in the rush hours.
 
Last edited:

700007

Member
Joined
6 May 2017
Messages
1,086
Location
Near a bunch of sheds that aren't 66s.
I am not sure if the Hertford line avoids the worse of cross importing of delays from Thameslink but i have noticed train fault delays have increased.

The toilets are an interesting debate. Some say 50 minutes is fine for a train with no toilet, which is fine. But when they break down and you are stuck on them for hours (like August) maybe the space dedicated would be worth it.

You often get “the 313s didn’t have toilets and seat back tables”. But they didn’t have air-conditioning, plugs or WiFi. So should the 717s not have had them either? (General question not specifically aimed at you)

I personally would love to see the service as dependable as it was pre May 2018. I notice GTR refuse to publish the MTIN rate for the 717 now - I wonder why?
In regards to the toilet debate, you do have a point about if a train gets stranded such as in the August scenario or the Beast from the East scenario. However, given the routes that they work and spend most of their time in urban London or Hertfordshire, it should be much easier to evacuate passengers if they are spending too long on the train. After recent high profile previous incidents, we should learn as an industry to implement evacuation procedures sooner rather than later.
 

03_179

Established Member
Joined
13 Aug 2008
Messages
1,570
Location
London
In regards to the toilet debate, you do have a point about if a train gets stranded such as in the August scenario or the Beast from the East scenario. However, given the routes that they work and spend most of their time in urban London or Hertfordshire, it should be much easier to evacuate passengers if they are spending too long on the train. After recent high profile previous incidents, we should learn as an industry to implement evacuation procedures sooner rather than later.
Personally speaking I fell ALL trains should have toilets.

My wife suffers from IBS and issues where if she needs to go .. she REALLY needs to go. Most stations now don't have toilets. Yesterday I could not see one at Oakleigh Park, Harley Wood, Enfield Chase or any of the NCL. The only option was Finsbury Park.
 

jellybaby

Member
Joined
27 Dec 2012
Messages
329
Personally speaking I fell ALL trains should have toilets.
Even the Stourbridge Town Branch Line?

Some say 50 minutes is fine for a train with no toilet, which is fine. But when they break down and you are stuck on them for hours (like August) maybe the space dedicated would be worth it.
Maybe they just need to evacuate stranded trains sooner if they have no toilets.

Another issue might be loading. Being stuck on a packed train where you are standing face to armpit with others is very different to a service where there is a surplus of seats.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
3,421
Even the Stourbridge Town Branch Line?


Maybe they just need to evacuate stranded trains sooner if they have no toilets.

Another issue might be loading. Being stuck on a packed train where you are standing face to armpit with others is very different to a service where there is a surplus of seats.
On a rammed train getting to the toilet is virtually impossible anyway
 

Ethano92

Member
Joined
26 Jun 2017
Messages
396
Location
New Malden
The air-con did nothing to remove the stench of commuter BO ... and after getting on a fiar few in the rush hour it was
I'd say that's not what it's made to do. Saying that if it does take in air from outside rather than circulate the air inside it should remove any smells. Personally I'd rather be on a cool train that smelt rather than a boiling hot train with a meaningful breeze for about 30 seconds between each stop only if you're in the right place. Can't say I've never noticed BO on non air conditioned BR stock either.

After recent high profile previous incidents, we should learn as an industry to implement evacuation procedures sooner rather than later.
I agree, personally I see no reason why the railway's can't begin the appropriate response for an evacuatuon procedure within minutes of a train potentially being in trouble, we know it takes time, by the time the driver has tried a few different things if you THEN set up emergency response it's too late.

On a rammed train getting to the toilet is virtually impossible anyway
If you really need it, you'll make it. I speak from experience whilst receiving many dissaproving tuts :oops:.

About the trains, I've heard the 700s have a feature to dim the lights, and it's up to the driver if they can be bothered to enable it. Do the 717s have this always enabled or am I imagining things?
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
24,467
Location
UK
There are two brightness levels on a 700 and it does seem as if the 717s are on lower level by default.

I don't think the low level brightness on a 700 is intended for normal use and is called something like standby lighting or similar? At night it would be quite cool to drop the brightness, but I doubt anyone wants people to get too cosy and sleep - plus the obvious safety (even if just a perception of safety) issues.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
7,493
Location
Central Belt
There are two brightness levels on a 700 and it does seem as if the 717s are on lower level by default.

I don't think the low level brightness on a 700 is intended for normal use and is called something like standby lighting or similar? At night it would be quite cool to drop the brightness, but I doubt anyone wants people to get too cosy and sleep - plus the obvious safety (even if just a perception of safety) issues.
not much risk of people getting too comfortable and falling to sleep realistically, unless they bring their own cushions.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top