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GN Class 717

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psychopompos

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Yesterday I was able to catch the 717006 in both directions and I had the following observations:
  1. It arrived at HHY, very very slowly, around a minute late at 7:40. The sound that it makes as it's coasting down the platform is horrific.
  2. Way more packed than any 313 is usually at this time. People as unwilling as always to move down the isles. I got on in the middle, hoping I'd by able to walk towards the front between Old Street and Moorgate - no chance.
  3. Definitely felt way bumpier than a 313 ever did. I think a lot of it has to do with how much quieter the new trains are.
  4. A tad warm for my taste, had that been a 313 I bet someone would've opened a window by that point.
  5. I really wish it had buttons on both sides of the door. Or that they'd open automatically.
  6. The 17:25 arrived at MOG around 17:33. Got completely rammed and waited for about 10 minutes before departing.
  7. Some passengers were very amused/annoyed by the fact that some doors would close automatically after about 20 seconds, while others would stay open indefinitely.
  8. While we were waiting to depart it was getting to be uncomfortably hot inside the train, but around the time we got to Old Street it was much better.
  9. Didn't notice the ride being as harsh that time around, perhaps being fully loaded helps with that.
  10. The PIS worked well in both directions, however the way the way that it announced Highbury and Islington made me seriously question my pronunciation.
  11. Strictly single file in the isles, that smart handle design thoroughly underutilised.
Today I walked to Angel and took the tube.
 
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jon0844

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It took over a year for users on TL to 'learn' how to use the 700s, so I expect behaviour to change over time as people get used to them.
 

Failed Unit

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I understand a 6 car 313 has about 100 more seats than a 6 car 717.

Therefore the 717s will always seem more crowded.

Take for example the 0824 WGC - Moorgate. Passengers don’t normally need to stand until Alexander Palace. Some of course will choose to.

When this is converted to a 717. Passengers will be standing at New Barnet (although some will choose to stand before)

When it appears at Alexander palace the train will appear to be fuller as about 100 people are standing that didn’t need to on the old stock.

GTR claim that the crush loading will get 100 more passengers in. Which of course is needed. But on the WGC line I think that passengers from stations south of potters bar will not be impressed they now need to stand.

Please - don’t say no-one ever used the middle seat. This is not true. I can supply lots of photos of people sitting in the middle seat.
 

choochoochoo

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Besides the 100mph gaffe, I think the article is mostly accurate. It's clearly based on the GTR press release though.

I notice the local press got the same 100mph error too.

I just read the GTR press release. I take what I said about the Standard back.

It's worrying when the company's own media department can't get the facts right !

I wonder if I get caught speeding in one I can use that press release as my defence ? ;) I take it these trains will self-report any exceedance above 85mph like the 700s do at 103.

The fastest I might get it will probably be 80 on the down Royston, for a baldock turn around into Letchworth. Once they're allowed into that yard. Doubt they'll get much time on the up or down fast.
 

Railperf

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Having had a chance to download the data and analyse 313 vs 717, it is clear that between the shorter station stops, a driver giving it the full beans from from rest allows a 717 to gain around 5 or 6 seconds ahead of a 313. The ability to reach the full 75mph where a 313 was only able to reach 60mph helps. but the old units are not slow by any means up to 30 or 40mph. In fact the 717's seem to lose a few seconds from rest to around 40mph -mainly due to cautious power handling.

Between some of the longer station stops such Welham Green to Hatfield, the 717 can gain as much as 11 seconds ahead of the 313. But as I said in an earlier post - and backed up by some 'driver' comments - probably a lack of confidence with the brake loses a few seconds of any advantage. I guess drivers can pilot the 313's in their sleep. It does seem as if the power and braking controls on the newer units takes some getting used to. I notice station starts are much more variable using a 717 than say a 313. On occasion the 717s seem to accelerate cleanly and quickly from rest, whereas on other occasions there seems to be a bit of a paused/delayed action into full power. I guess as drivers get to learn the 'feel' of the controls, we will start to see time recovery improve.

The average passenger will feel these trains are a lot faster because they are able to achieve higher speeds - up to 75mph- in between the stops. I did not record anything near 100mph and didn't expect to on the slow lines!! In real terms it looks like around 5 to 10 seconds between each station to station stop could be the average time improvement.

On the other hand I felt that performance through the Northern City line was more cautious than on the 313's - maybe because drivers are even more cautious to get the station stops perfect. The voltage changeover at Drayton Park also seems to take longer - as some have mentioned - despite there only being a single pantograph to raise. Although i did note a pair of 313's delayed as the front pantograph seemed reluctant to raise.

As per previous comments, these feel like a 700 - except for the lack of first class and loos. They do seem to take customers by surprise. Some people do seem hesitant to board wondering if it is the right train. The 313's have a very floaty ride that really soaks up the bumps well - despite the track quality in the tunnels being very poor. The 717's seem to sway quite a bit from side to side and had me wondering whether the train might strike the tunnel wall!! The 313's body control seems better checked. But overall, there is no comparison - the sound insulation is much better especially as there are no open windows. But i would agree the aircon could have been set a little cooler!
 

Railperf

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;) I take it these trains will self-report any exceedance above 85mph like the 700s do at 103.
I've barely seen a Class 700 driven much more than around 95mph - rarely ever dead on the 100mph limit or even slightly over. The 387's however seem to be driven for mile after mile at 99 to 100mph - the odd 101mph with ease. Is this a train handling issue? Yesterday the 717's were being driven similarly at no more that 72 to 73mph on 75mph track. And this seems odd when a train is running several minutes late - and every few seconds gained is precious!
 

choochoochoo

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I've barely seen a Class 700 driven much more than around 95mph - rarely ever dead on the 100mph limit or even slightly over. The 387's however seem to be driven for mile after mile at 99 to 100mph - the odd 101mph with ease. Is this a train handling issue? Yesterday the 717's were being driven similarly at no more that 72 to 73mph on 75mph track. And this seems odd when a train is running several minutes late - and every few seconds gained is precious!
Could this be due to the speedo overreading and the driver seeing 100 but the train actually only doing 95 ? Are you using GPS to measure the speed ?
 

Railperf

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Could this be due to the speedo overreading and the driver seeing 100 but the train actually only doing 95 ? Are you using GPS to measure the speed ?
Yes, it could be the answer - but I wouldn't expect the wheel sets to be that worn out that the speedo is under-reading by that much. After all if the train schedule is timed at 100mph - and the track and unit are designed for it, - then the driver should be able to rely on his instrument that says he is doing 100mph - not 95 or 105. surely.
 

choochoochoo

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Yes, it could be the answer - but I wouldn't expect the wheel sets to be that worn out that the speedo is under-reading by that much. After all if the train schedule is timed at 100mph - and the track and unit are designed for it, - then the driver should be able to rely on his instrument that says he is doing 100mph - not 95 or 105. surely.

Maybe it's built in the software so the speedo will always overread and not due to wheelset wear, to ensure the driver never exceeds 100. Lots of safety built in the software. The epic length of a neutral section transition being a prime example.
 

387star

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I understand a 6 car 313 has about 100 more seats than a 6 car 717.

Therefore the 717s will always seem more crowded.

Take for example the 0824 WGC - Moorgate. Passengers don’t normally need to stand until Alexander Palace. Some of course will choose to.

When this is converted to a 717. Passengers will be standing at New Barnet (although some will choose to stand before)

When it appears at Alexander palace the train will appear to be fuller as about 100 people are standing that didn’t need to on the old stock.

GTR claim that the crush loading will get 100 more passengers in. Which of course is needed. But on the WGC line I think that passengers from stations south of potters bar will not be impressed they now need to stand.

Please - don’t say no-one ever used the middle seat. This is not true. I can supply lots of photos of people sitting in the middle seat.
Given there are fewer seats why is the legroom so tight?
 

387star

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Yes, it could be the answer - but I wouldn't expect the wheel sets to be that worn out that the speedo is under-reading by that much. After all if the train schedule is timed at 100mph - and the track and unit are designed for it, - then the driver should be able to rely on his instrument that says he is doing 100mph - not 95 or 105. surely.
700s get from 30 to 95 between finsbury park and Alexandra palace but the neutral section reduces the speed to 80 plus the 100 isn't till after the wood green tunnel
The speed on the HMI is also slightly at odds with the digital Speedo
It's rare for drivers to do bang on the linespeed as there is more chance of going over... however if the gradient is flat then it is very easy to hold speed. On a 700 with the variable controller it is possible to hold various speeds for instance departing pancras to finsbury in the canal tunnel go up to 20 shut off for the neutral then the downhill gradient adds about 7mph then becomes a steep uphill gradient so about just over 40% power is required to keep the train at a set speed
 

332 > 444

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I just read the GTR press release. I take what I said about the Standard back.

It's worrying when the company's own media department can't get the facts right !

I wonder if I get caught speeding in one I can use that press release as my defence ? ;) I take it these trains will self-report any exceedance above 85mph like the 700s do at 103.

The fastest I might get it will probably be 80 on the down Royston, for a baldock turn around into Letchworth. Once they're allowed into that yard. Doubt they'll get much time on the up or down fast.

Only for the 700s as it's Siemens who does the reporting, Hornsey fitters are in charge of the 717 maintenance. Only time we can get to 85mph is when going north of WGC but hopefully with a higher top speed, signallers can let ECS from WGC to Hornsey on the fast......

To the people saying the ride sways, you ain't wrong, as in the drivers cab it is felt much more!
 

Railperf

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700s get from 30 to 95 between finsbury park and Alexandra palace but the neutral section reduces the speed to 80 plus the 100 isn't till after the wood green tunnel
The speed on the HMI is also slightly at odds with the digital Speedo
It's rare for drivers to do bang on the linespeed as there is more chance of going over... however if the gradient is flat then it is very easy to hold speed. On a 700 with the variable controller it is possible to hold various speeds for instance departing pancras to finsbury in the canal tunnel go up to 20 shut off for the neutral then the downhill gradient adds about 7mph then becomes a steep uphill gradient so about just over 40% power is required to keep the train at a set speed
what is the HMI? I have heard the speed displayed on Pendolino TMS can be a few mph different to the actual speedo - which is an analogue gauge. On the 700's you have that ETCS style speed with the digital speed in the middle of the dial. What else is there? And how do you determine which one to go by?
 

choochoochoo

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Only for the 700s as it's Siemens who does the reporting, Hornsey fitters are in charge of the 717 maintenance. Only time we can get to 85mph is when going north of WGC but hopefully with a higher top speed, signallers can let ECS from WGC to Hornsey on the fast......

To the people saying the ride sways, you ain't wrong, as in the drivers cab it is felt much more!

Something to keep in mind in potters bar tunnel on the up slow then. It feels pretty tight in a 313.
 

choochoochoo

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what is the HMI? I have heard the speed displayed on Pendolino TMS can be a few mph different to the actual speedo - which is an analogue gauge. On the 700's you have that ETCS style speed with the digital speed in the middle of the dial. What else is there? And how do you determine which one to go by?
HMI -human machine interface - It's one of the touch screens that displays information to the driver. It is used to control non-driving aspects of the train (saloon lighting/aircon/doors).
 

Railperf

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Something to keep in mind in potters bar tunnel on the up slow then. It feels pretty tight in a 313.
I didn't notice too much sway there to be honest and i had 2 runs aboard the 717's yesterday. Although - that might be why we were doing only 60mph through there - for comfort reasons?
 

westcoaster

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You can have up to 2-3 mph diffeerence between the two Speedos on a 700. The main one I think over reads and also shows around 1-2 mph when you have just stopped, the back up is what the unit is actually doing.
One reads off the wheels
And the other is a Doppler radar.
 

choochoochoo

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I didn't notice too much sway there to be honest and i had 2 runs aboard the 717's yesterday. Although - that might be why we were doing only 60mph through there - for comfort reasons?

Only 60 ? The Permanent Speed Restriction is 65 ? Did a manager/trainer say 717s should only do 60 through there ? I didn't notice it on any briefings.
 

notverydeep

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I had my first albeit brief ride this morning on 717005 working 2J38 0841 Gordon Hill - Moorgate between Finsbury Park and Highbury & Islington. I ended up at the very front and the train was very busy, but as others have commented this may be the consequence of more boarders / fewer left behinds resulting from the larger standing area. Certainly passengers are more reluctant to stand in the aisles away from the door stand backs, even when those are quite crowded.

My observations are similar to many already posted, but one observation I had (and not so far mentioned) was that the front door stand back and the area between the longitudinal seat behind the cab was very lacking in useable grab poles. This area could really have done with something like S Stock like ceiling suspended poles and loops. Holding on here required leaning over the seated passengers, which felt uncomfortably like invading their personal space. As these trains will typically be left the same way round, perhaps a low cost modification could improve this. I saw one person lose their balance while searching around for something to hold.

Departing from Highbury, I observed the train was much less busy at the north end. Given this tendency for short distance passengers to be skewed to the south end of the train by the station layouts at Highbury & Islington, Old Street and Moorgate, whether an all longitudinal layout in the front one or two coaches might be considered at some point, particularly if the future service on the Northern City Line is increased significantly with ETCS (plus presumably a follow on train order) and station dwell times become more of a constraint...
 

BlyRF

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Had my first ride yesterday and took the 17:25 (late coming in by 15 mind) to Gordon Hill from Moor gate. Was jam packed with passengers and mostly traveled slow but indeed a very smooth ride and yes bumpy but still a better ride quality then the 313 fossils.

The return journey had to be via 313 but it seemed to terminate at Frinsbury Park due to "lack of drivers" and carried on to Kings cross. But after 15 mins wait another 717 luckey came and I rode it to Moorgate :)

Fantastic evening absolutely enjoyed it, now for them 710s to start soon hopefully.
 

Glen M

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Are the same 717 diagrams operating as yesterday? If so is 006 running to time today, don't intend on missing the Welwyn train like yesterday as a result of late running?
Cheers
 

daniel1234321

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Has anyone noticed that (same on 700s) when sitting in a window seat, because of the way the train curves in at the bottom, and the cabling (I assume) down the side of the train at foot level you can't sit with both feet flat on the floor. I know the trains are built now but seems like a bit of a design flaw, no lessons learnt from 700s. Makes you wonder if Siemens actually tested them with someone sitting in the seat before they built them.
 

jon0844

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I don't find it that bad. I can bend my feet inwards, although perhaps I've just flown on too many low cost airlines and have allowed my standards to fall!
 

ijmad

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The shape of the carriages curves and narrows at the base, so I assume the box is just a reflection of the exterior shape, surely?
 

simple simon

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Now that they are in full time service I went for a spin - albeit only on the Northern City line between Highbury & Islington and Essex Road.

At the latter I filmed the same train going both ways, I did not film the door opening on the southbound journey as I was discussing the service with a member of staff who kindly advised me that the second train was running late (I had intended to travel on that!).

The second pass (northbound) also shows the mid-platform CCTV displays for driver only operation of single unit Class 313 trains. I do wonder why similar does not exist for 717's here - it would help with the sighting issues!

By the way, camera angles showing the remaining Network Southeast signage was not accidental. I wonder if this will eventually be vinyl covered - or simply removed? BR would have put station name signage at that location for a very good reason, this being that it helps passengers know where they are. It would be far better if Great Northern retained this feature.

Also, note the view from inside the 717 (at Essex Road) just before the doors close - the dado rail on the platform has been removed, leaving some previous tiling visible.

 
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