GN Class 717

[samuelmorris]

Anybody know why there are so many complaints about the saloon aircon on these units ?

Without fail, there is at least 2 complaints about it on Twitter a day. The Twitter team said the other day the self regulation of the temperature control could be affected by continual opening and closing of doors. That's a serious design oversight if that's the case.

Also curious as to know whether any of the units have had their filters inspected since entry into service. Would love to have seen what they look like after those Moorgate trips.

As far as I'm aware, every TOC gets at least that many complaints about A/C a day - people have different preferences for temperature and what the TOC sets is never going to satisfy everyone. I appreciate on some units the A/C can fail but I've never really experienced it doing so on a 700 so I assume 717s would be similar.

 

[Bald Rick]

As far as I'm aware, every TOC gets at least that many complaints about A/C a day - people have different preferences for temperature and what the TOC sets is never going to satisfy everyone. I appreciate on some units the A/C can fail but I've never really experienced it doing so on a 700 so I assume 717s would be similar.

I get at least two complaints a day about temperature just from the occupants of my house!

 

[Aictos]

Well I finally had a trip on two Class 717s on the GN recently both a Welwyn GC and a Stevenage via Hertford with the following to report:

Firstly 717008 while everything worked as it ought to, the onboard CIS screen were stuck on the warning message saying the doors were about to close please stand clear although the verbal announcements worked fine.

Secondly 717014 worked like a dream with no faults at all with everything working as it ought to.

I did notice a few differences apart from the obvious which was the seat cushions on the 717s seem to be the same type as the 1st Class on the 700s ie you need a crowbar to remove them as on the 700s the standard class seat cushions can easily be removed.

The green emergency door releases seem to be more vandal proof as in there is no perspex covering it as it is on the 700s which must be smashed on least 99% of the 700s by now!

The wifi was a bonus and the power sockets was nice to have, wasn't bothered about seat trays though!

The AC worked as it ought to eg it wasn't like a oven like most 700s are those days (can count on one hand the number of 700s that are cool), altogether a massive improvement on the clapped out Class 313s.

 

[jon0844]

On and off for a few weeks we've had some very cold mornings. Even when we had days with sun and temperatures over 20, it could feel surprisingly cold when the sun went behind clouds. As such it's not surprising that at times the heating will be on inside trains.

 

[tofl]

I've had maybe a dozen different journeys so far on 717s, at different times of the day and week. The carriage temperature has varied a bit more than I expected to be honest, but over a much smaller range than the 313s so overall while not perfect it's a vast improvement.

 

[daniel1234321]

Anybody know why there are so many complaints about the saloon aircon on these units ?

Without fail, there is at least 2 complaints about it on Twitter a day. The Twitter team said the other day the self regulation of the temperature control could be affected by continual opening and closing of doors. That's a serious design oversight if that's the case.

Also curious as to know whether any of the units have had their filters inspected since entry into service. Would love to have seen what they look like after those Moorgate trips.

I'm pretty sure at least a few have hadn their air con filters changed already, but then again, the first came over from Germany in June last year so they are over a year old now.

 

[samuelmorris]

Well I finally had a trip on two Class 717s on the GN recently both a Welwyn GC and a Stevenage via Hertford with the following to report:

Firstly 717008 while everything worked as it ought to, the onboard CIS screen were stuck on the warning message saying the doors were about to close please stand clear although the verbal announcements worked fine.

Secondly 717014 worked like a dream with no faults at all with everything working as it ought to.

I did notice a few differences apart from the obvious which was the seat cushions on the 717s seem to be the same type as the 1st Class on the 700s ie you need a crowbar to remove them as on the 700s the standard class seat cushions can easily be removed.

The green emergency door releases seem to be more vandal proof as in there is no perspex covering it as it is on the 700s which must be smashed on least 99% of the 700s by now!

The wifi was a bonus and the power sockets was nice to have, wasn't bothered about seat trays though!

The AC worked as it ought to eg it wasn't like a oven like most 700s are those days (can count on one hand the number of 700s that are cool), altogether a massive improvement on the clapped out Class 313s.

I've never seen any loose seat cushions on a 700, or anyone try to remove them, this is news to me!

 

[Aictos]

I've never seen any loose seat cushions on a 700, or anyone try to remove them, this is news to me!

I’ve seen a few seats in standard class in the 700s with missing seat cushions which proves my point that they are easily removed by vandals.

For further proof, try lifting the seat cushion and you see how easy it is to do then try the 1st class seat cushions which are the same design as the standard class seats in the 717s.

 

[jon0844]

I've never seen any loose seat cushions on a 700, or anyone try to remove them, this is news to me!

And me. Never seen one missing or loose.

 

[choochoochoo]

As far as I'm aware, every TOC gets at least that many complaints about A/C a day - people have different preferences for temperature and what the TOC sets is never going to satisfy everyone. I appreciate on some units the A/C can fail but I've never really experienced it doing so on a 700 so I assume 717s would be similar.

From what I've seen on the GN Twitter feed the aircon complaints are always about the 717. Barely see any 700 (but they could all be on the TL Twitter) nor anything about 387s

 

[samuelmorris]

Interesting. I wonder what the difference is?

 

[choochoochoo]

Firstly 717008 while everything worked as it ought to, the onboard CIS screen were stuck on the warning message saying the doors were about to close please stand clear although the verbal announcements worked fine.

This is an annoying bug in the PIS. After selecting a pre-recorded message, the driver needs to 'clear down' the message in order to restore the specific route information display. It's easy enough to forget to do this before continuing the journey. Think it can happen on 700 too.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I traveled on a 717 today (EDIT - that was yesterday Thu 13/06/2019). At both Haringey and Hornsey there was a message saying the doors on the rear coach would not open. But I could clearly see the platform outside the rearmost door at both stations. I thought the 717s were like 700s and so very fussy about where the driver stopped so why keep the rear doors closed ?.

 

[332 > 444]

This is an annoying bug in the PIS. After selecting a pre-recorded message, the driver needs to 'clear down' the message in order to restore the specific route information display. It's easy enough to forget to do this before continuing the journey. Think it can happen on 700 too.

I wish I read this before I set off from Stevenage this morning, little did I know until I was relieved by a passing driver that the PIS still had Not In Service displayed but was still announcing stations.

 

[OwenB]

From what I've seen on the GN Twitter feed the aircon complaints are always about the 717. Barely see any 700 (but they could all be on the TL Twitter) nor anything about 387s

I've seen this on Twitter too. I can't say I've noticed the temperatures being particularly warm, although I've been on the 05.29 Hatfield - Moorgate this week, so not particularly warm outside at that ungodly hour, and my return train has been a 313 (16.45). Could it be one particular unit?

 

[Aictos]

This is an annoying bug in the PIS. After selecting a pre-recorded message, the driver needs to 'clear down' the message in order to restore the specific route information display. It's easy enough to forget to do this before continuing the journey. Think it can happen on 700 too.

I think it was also on the incoming service too into Moorgate which then formed a return to Moorgate via Stevenage and Hertford, not sure though why the audio announcements are not affected when the screens are though?

 

[Aictos]

I wish I read this before I set off from Stevenage this morning, little did I know until I was relieved by a passing driver that the PIS still had Not In Service displayed but was still announcing stations.

If you think that's bad, I've been on a few 700s which state upon arrival at Luton Airport Parkway still has the entire stopping pattern from Gillingham (Kent) northwards! I think one even had a Kent station as the next station upon arrival at St Albans!

Surely the 700s are clever enough to know when they've departed from stations to remove it from the calling pattern?

 

[jon0844]

Interesting. I wonder what the difference is?

Maybe just a lot of 313 users who aren't used to trains with climate control, and non-openable windows*. I've not been on many (prefer the faster services) but the ones I have seem fine. I am certain the air conditioning system and the controls are going to be identical to the 700s.

* On this forum, you might assume everyone wants to be able to open windows.

 

[samuelmorris]

I’ve seen a few seats in standard class in the 700s with missing seat cushions which proves my point that they are easily removed by vandals.

For further proof, try lifting the seat cushion and you see how easy it is to do then try the 1st class seat cushions which are the same design as the standard class seats in the 717s.

Having ridden both a 700 in first and a 717, are you sure? To me the 717 seats seem the same as the ones in the 700's standard.

 

[choochoochoo]

If you think that's bad, I've been on a few 700s which state upon arrival at Luton Airport Parkway still has the entire stopping pattern from Gillingham (Kent) northwards! I think one even had a Kent station as the next station upon arrival at St Albans!

Surely the 700s are clever enough to know when they've departed from stations to remove it from the calling pattern?

The 700s/717s are clever enough. But I think it comes down to making changes outside the initial specifications. It wouldn't take a lot of programming to eradicate a lot of these bugs, but who is going to pay for it ? If you've met the specifications that were given to you, why would you take on any additional work for free ? Your shareholders wouldn't be too happy. Shows the importance of getting the design brief and specification absolutely right in the first place.

 

[bramling]

Maybe just a lot of 313 users who aren't used to trains with climate control, and non-openable windows*. I've not been on many (prefer the faster services) but the ones I have seem fine. I am certain the air conditioning system and the controls are going to be identical to the 700s.

* On this forum, you might assume everyone wants to be able to open windows.

I rarely use 700s, however when I have I’ve invariably found the interior too warm, especially on anything warmer than a cold day outside. In particular there’s been occasions when the air conditioning didn’t seem to be doing much at all. This seems to be in contrast to other Siemens units where generally it’s pretty effective and seemingly reliable.

For starters the air conditioning could quite happily be set slightly colder.

By comparison a 365 is bliss as the opening windows avoid all this. Personally I prefer the extra noise as it drowns out irritating passenger noises - on a 700 one can hear other conversations from quite a distance away, no doubt anyone using the declassified first (aka the GTR staff mobile messroom) will have heard all about how awful GTR is!

 

[Aictos]

The 700s/717s are clever enough. But I think it comes down to making changes outside the initial specifications. It wouldn't take a lot of programming to eradicate a lot of these bugs, but who is going to pay for it ? If you've met the specifications that were given to you, why would you take on any additional work for free ? Your shareholders wouldn't be too happy. Shows the importance of getting the design brief and specification absolutely right in the first place.

That is true but there is something called After Sales Support which is lacking here, surely it shouldn't take much in the way of a update to be done remotely?

I rarely use 700s, however when I have I’ve invariably found the interior too warm, especially on anything warmer than a cold day outside. In particular there’s been occasions when the air conditioning didn’t seem to be doing much at all. This seems to be in contrast to other Siemens units where generally it’s pretty effective and seemingly reliable.

For starters the air conditioning could quite happily be set slightly colder.

By comparison a 365 is bliss as the opening windows avoid all this. Personally I prefer the extra noise as it drowns out irritating passenger noises - on a 700 one can hear other conversations from quite a distance away, no doubt anyone using the declassified first (aka the GTR staff mobile messroom) will have heard all about how awful GTR is!

With regards to the AC on the 700s, strange as it might seem I actually agree with you that the interior is too warm! Even on days that are quite pleasant, I can find units that are so warm you might as well host a BBQ onboard! Example, last week or so when it was quite nice weather the vast majority of the units I was on had the heating set to winter mode

I can count on one hand the number of units I've had that have actually had working AC in that it's effective and cool when it's meant to be!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Here is a list of what seemed to be in traffic on Thursday 13/06/2019. Or at least what I saw at Hornsey station between 17:52 and 20:03.
Depot (2) :-
717011 (seen moving around) and
7170?? (South end of depot, 3/4 East from lines).
Passing (8) :-
717004 HE56,
717005 Down @ 18:15,
717008 HE58,
717009 Up @ 18:15,
717014 HE60,
717016 Up @ 18:54,
717018 HE59 (later returned to depot) and
717020 HE63.
They were mostly on the diagrams mentioned up thread.
Sorry I did not have time to post earlier.

That was ten of the 25 class 717s. So where are the rest of them as I could not see any on Ferme Park (populated with HSTs and Mk4s plus eventually an 800/801 iirc). Wish I had more time for a fly past of Cricklewood but I was after the sleepers (so a failure for me).

 

[jellybaby]

So where are the rest of them

There were some at Dollands Moor yesterday.

 

[387star]

Between Aldrington and Hove there's a siding with a 717 stop board

Very Strange

Add on order?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Between Aldrington and Hove there's a siding with a 717 stop board

Very Strange

Add on order?

Wouldn't that be connected with the storage at West Worthing?

Incidentally one of the Worthing ones is being moved back to Hornsey tonight. At least that seems to be the plan...

 

[jon0844]

There's one new 717 diagram from tomorrow or Tuesday.

 

[EE Andy b1]

I know it's still early days but are the Class 717 turning into a quite reliable unit now?
Siemens seem to build quite reliable rollingstock.

Is there a particular intensive diagram that they will have to cover, mileage/timewise?

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

I know it's still early days but are the Class 717 turning into a quite reliable unit now?
Siemens seem to build quite reliable rollingstock.

Is there a particular intensive diagram that they will have to cover, mileage/timewise?

Given they’re a variant of the 700, one would hope all the learnings since they were introduced have fed in to making the 717 a technically good train from an engineering perspective (ignoring aesthetic displeasures across the stakeholder-base)

 

[Failed Unit]

I know it's still early days but are the Class 717 turning into a quite reliable unit now?
Siemens seem to build quite reliable rollingstock.

Is there a particular intensive diagram that they will have to cover, mileage/timewise?

Early days. But rather pathetic at the moment.

MTIN is 5048 so about ⅓ of the 313s they replace.

To compare the 700s are at 10552 (so below but closer to the 313s).

As a user I have noticed little difference in service cancellations due to set failures. (But an increase due to lack of train crew. Particularly when large events of public interest are taking place) so probably more to do with relying on volunteers to cover the service rather than the drivers knowledge of the 717s.

Reliablity will of course improve but as expected the failure rate is worse that the 313s at the moment.