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Go on the tracks

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DXMachina

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For a mobile phone (nice flat surfaces..) , you need a long stick and a lump of blu-tack or a bundle of sticky-tape, then can retrieve without getting off the platform or even overhanging the edge with more than a hand...

Such things might be located fairly easily and locally to the station - if you can trust that nobody else will go down for it while you;re finding them anyway....
 
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VauxhallandI

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For a mobile phone (nice flat surfaces..) , you need a long stick and a lump of blu-tack or a bundle of sticky-tape, then can retrieve without getting off the platform or even overhanging the edge with more than a hand...

Such things might be located fairly easily and locally to the station - if you can trust that nobody else will go down for it while you;re finding them anyway....

Yes but alas not at Silver Street and certainly not at 7.30pm
 

muz379

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Often they don't. Plus they're regularly sent out to lesser matters... Alternative they can turn up with BTP later when the person who's lost the item is now laid out in pieces along the track, when it's a more important matter! :lol:
Difference being the person who is now laid out in pieces along the track has willingly broke the law and put themselves in that situation and could potentially cause much trauma for the driver/passengers other traincrew of the train that has hit them .

And all for a mobile phone,Oh Great ...

Don't you think they'd priorities jobs? If they're not miles away from the new points failure retrieving someone's lost house keys/wallet/phone, they could be even further away scrapping up someone's long deceased dead dog.
They would yes , if they are round the corner it is all good and well they can be there in 5 or 10 minutes . But as I say below , how many people will wait for the MOM to arrive if s/he is further away which could in some cases be upto an hour .

TBF I didnt even know prior to this that the MOM would come out to retrieve items , so next time something like this happens I will contact the signaler and ask if the MOM can come out and see how that works out .



So it's better to do sod all and give them no choice but to break the law and risk their lives, completely oblivious to the danger they face? Fair enough if you've just followed your TOCs official policy on the matter, I don't think my TOC even has one, but I know what I'd do.
I didn't say it was better to do sod all , I have said I wish that the train carried a cleaners litter pick device because in my experience most items that go onto the track fall down the gap when people are getting on or off and this would be perfect for retrieving those items . Unfortunately the train does not carry that which is not my doing .
I also said when it happens to me I will inform the signaler so that the next train can be cautioned , that way if the person does slip and hurt themselves , or the next train is an express they at least have some chance of not getting laid out by the following train .

Apart from that in my position all I can do is inform them that they should not go on the track . And IMO any member of railway staff that tells them they can go onto the track is neglecting the safety implications of such massively .

If however when I tell people not to do something and they then go and break the law and get themselves killed , they really have nobody to blame but themselves .

If the MOM is not immediately round the corner it could take them some time to travel to the station . 45 minutes . How many people are realistically going to wait that long when they already dont perceive the danger as being that bad that they think they can just break the law pertaining to trespass ?.
In all honesty in most cases people who already dont know or think about the danger or are arrogant enough to think they wont get hit are not going to wait an hour to do something they think they can do in 2 minutes
Given that I have seen someone jump onto the track to retrieve something at a manned station with dispatchers who might have been able to retrieve it . I think even if we did have a policy where staff could retrieve items many people just wont be patient enough to wait .

My only other point is , where do we draw the lines as to what the MOM will come out to retrieve and what they wont . A mobile phone or a wallet yes I see why . But what about the group of young boys who approached me and asked for me to get a football from under my train . Are we really going to start delaying trains and paying for the MOM to come out to retrieve a football ? I am pretty certain they did retrieve it because when passing back through the station about half an hour later it was gone .

On another note TBH even if my TOC did have a policy where I was permitted to retrieve items from the track I would probably decline in many cases because I dont want to go anywhere near the excrement that is sprayed out of the bottom of trains .But that is another matter .
 
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the sniper

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I agree with much of what you've said there, tbh mate. I just want to make the point (and unfortunately you've been the unlucky target of my argument here!) that we as the railway have to offer some kind of legal option to people for retrieving important personal items dropped down the gap. I can't chastise people for taking matters into their own hands if the railway can't offer any solution whatsoever to their problem, but to leave their wallet, car/house keys or phone on the ballast, mainly because I couldn't accept that either if it happened to me! :smile:
 
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Bodiddly

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This is all a bit of a non argument. It's wrong to go on the live line, end of. Sadly, with today's lack of respect for authority, try telling some chav he's not going down to get his £600 iphone and watch his response! Far better to put a system in place to have the items retrieved than to have Joe public wandering all over the railway looking for expensive trinkets. Even safety critical PTS holders are forbidden to be on the tracks between station platforms without a blockage in place. A longer litter picking stick would be a good start.
 

muz379

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I agree with much of what you've said there, tbh mate. I just want to make the point (and unfortunately you've been the unlucky target of my argument here!) that we as the railway have to offer some kind of legal option to people for retrieving important personal items dropped down the gap. I can't chastise people for taking matters into their own hands if the railway can't offer any solution whatsoever to their problem, but to leave their wallet, car/house keys or phone on the ballast, mainly because I couldn't accept that either if it happened to me! :smile:
But the problem is this legal method is not going to be used by many because as I pointed out not that many people are going to be patient enough to wait for the MOM to arrive to retrieve it so really whilst putting a legal method in place we have changed nothing . Because the problem isn't the railways fault its the attitudes of people towards rules and towards their own safety .
 

Antman

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But the problem is this legal method is not going to be used by many because as I pointed out not that many people are going to be patient enough to wait for the MOM to arrive to retrieve it so really whilst putting a legal method in place we have changed nothing . Because the problem isn't the railways fault its the attitudes of people towards rules and towards their own safety .

People being killed or seriously injured whilst retrieving items from the track doesn't exactly seem to be a regular occurrence
 

GB

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But the problem is this legal method is not going to be used by many because as I pointed out not that many people are going to be patient enough to wait for the MOM to arrive to retrieve it so really whilst putting a legal method in place we have changed nothing . Because the problem isn't the railways fault its the attitudes of people towards rules and towards their own safety .

Yes but at least the railways would be covering its ass legality wise in the event of an unauthorized person going on the track and having an accident.
 

muz379

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Yes but at least the railways would be covering its ass legality wise in the event of an unauthorized person going on the track and having an accident.

It already does that though by the way that it is illegal to trespass on the railway .
People being killed or seriously injured whilst retrieving items from the track doesn't exactly seem to be a regular occurrence
I agree with that , although we dont know how many near misses occur ?
 

GB

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It already does that though by the way that it is illegal to trespass on the railway .

It doesn't really as the railway (like any other public body) are expected to put measures in place to protect the public because it has a duty of care. Thats why we have signs and fences and thats why Network Rail was fined a few months ago when a group of children gained access to a rail yard through a broken fence where one was then electrocuted.
 

Llanigraham

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I agree with much of what you've said there, tbh mate. I just want to make the point (and unfortunately you've been the unlucky target of my argument here!) that we as the railway have to offer some kind of legal option to people for retrieving important personal items dropped down the gap. I can't chastise people for taking matters into their own hands if the railway can't offer any solution whatsoever to their problem, but to leave their wallet, car/house keys or phone on the ballast, mainly because I couldn't accept that either if it happened to me! :smile:

There is a procedure in place.
When a member of staff is informed that an item has been dropped on the track, he or his superior phones the signaller and informs him of the situation, and the type of item dropped.
Signaller then checks what is happening on the line/lines affected and IF possible arranges a Line Blockage so that a trained member of staff, not necessarily a MOM, can retrieve said item, or "stops the job" if human life is threatened. Most large stations have a relevant trained member of staff present.
If the item is under a standing train then tough, it stays there until that train moves, unless the object could cause damage to that train.
If the station is unmanned then the member of the public should use the Call Point to contact Control who will then contact the signaller, and instructions will be given.
For anyone to ignore any of these rules is both stupid and potentially deadly!
 

Aictos

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There is a procedure in place.
When a member of staff is informed that an item has been dropped on the track, he or his superior phones the signaller and informs him of the situation, and the type of item dropped.
Signaller then checks what is happening on the line/lines affected and IF possible arranges a Line Blockage so that a trained member of staff, not necessarily a MOM, can retrieve said item, or "stops the job" if human life is threatened. Most large stations have a relevant trained member of staff present.
If the item is under a standing train then tough, it stays there until that train moves, unless the object could cause damage to that train.
If the station is unmanned then the member of the public should use the Call Point to contact Control who will then contact the signaller, and instructions will be given.
For anyone to ignore any of these rules is both stupid and potentially deadly!

I quite agree with your post, I've had to ask for line blockades a few times and only proceed to get stuff from the track using a litter picker from the platform once the signaller has confirmed it's safe to do so.

I don't fancy putting myself in danger and ending up in a dozen pieces all over the line just for someone's mobile.
 

muz379

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It doesn't really as the railway (like any other public body) are expected to put measures in place to protect the public because it has a duty of care. Thats why we have signs and fences and thats why Network Rail was fined a few months ago when a group of children gained access to a rail yard through a broken fence where one was then electrocuted.

But that was a proven case of the fence being broken and network rail either did or should have known about it .

That argument does not really work for people jumping off platforms to retrieve their lost items because there is no physical way of stopping people going onto the tracks (short of a few underground stops with platform edge doors) so the railway in telling people not to go down there with signs and the threat of penalty is doing as much as it reasonably can .

Lets take foot crossings - how many people who go on to commit suicide access the railway by these means .And yet the railway doesn't get sued every time someone takes their life having accessed the railway through a foot crossing .
 

GB

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But that was a proven case of the fence being broken and network rail either did or should have known about it .

...and equally it is not unreasonable to expect that public joe bloggs will go down an retrieve their belongings if there was no procedure for the railway to retrieve them.
 

muz379

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...and equally it is not unreasonable to expect that public joe bloggs will go down an retrieve their belongings if there was no procedure for the railway to retrieve them.

I understand what you are saying and it makes sense to me


But legally it just is not the case . If it where the case then stations would have signs instructing people what to do in that event(as far as I have seen up north they dont ) . instead they just have signs saying dont trespass on the railway .


to start with I dont think that the true scale of the problem can be measured or known . How many times when nobody is looking will somebody climb down retrieve their item and be on their way ? We just do not know .

You cant negate every single risk out there that someone might not follow the rules and get themselves hurt .

The case with the children was decided in the way that it was because the court felt that railway yards presented very enticing playgrounds to children and so something more should have been done to prevent them gaining access .

If the people electrocuted in that case where adult cable thieves the railway would not have been sued I dont think
 

GB

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I guess we will have to agree to disagree :)

I should add that I am not a lawyer or legal professional and its just my lose understanding on the subject so I may well be wrong.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If the people electrocuted in that case where adult cable thieves the railway would not have been sued I dont think

You are probably correct there.
 
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