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Gold card refused replacement

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Missburty

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Hi

I am new to this forum and would appreciate advice if this has happened to anyone else.

I am a FGW gold card holder and earlier on in the year i lost my pass which was replaced (2010-11 pass). I purchased another annual ticket which runs out June 2012. I lost this pass last week and have just been informed by FGW that that have refused my duplicate application on the grounds that it may be a fraudulent application :o. I have sent a letter of appeal but would appreciate advice. I have paid for this ticket by taking out a work season ticket loan and if they refuse I will have to pay again if I want to continue to work in London...

Help.
 
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AlterEgo

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Why would FGW think that it was fraudulent?

They won't just say that without a very good reason to back it up.
 

RJ

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Hi

I am new to this forum and would appreciate advice if this has happened to anyone else.

I am a FGW gold card holder and earlier on in the year i lost my pass which was replaced (2010-11 pass). I purchased another annual ticket which runs out June 2012. I lost this pass last week and have just been informed by FGW that that have refused my duplicate application on the grounds that it may be a fraudulent application :o. I have sent a letter of appeal but would appreciate advice. I have paid for this ticket by taking out a work season ticket loan and if they refuse I will have to pay again if I want to continue to work in London...

Help.

Not a lot you can do if FGW say no. It's not on to keep losing such a valuable ticket, it represents a huge loss to the TOC to give out free tickets worth thousands of pounds. If it was stolen, a police reference number might help matters.
 

Old Timer

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This is Clause 2 from the conditions of issue.

2. Lost or Stolen Tickets. If your Season Ticket is lost or stolen during its validity, you must immediately report the loss to the offi ce where it was issued. You will be asked to complete and sign a duplicate application form. Subject to the conditions shown in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and an administration fee, your ticket could be replaced. Should you subsequently find your lost Season Ticket this MUST be returned to a First Great Western station. If you are unfortunate enough to lose your ticket for the second time during its validity, you will need to buy a new Season Ticket at the normal price subject to the conditions detailed in Section H of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

These conditions have applied to season tickets since Adam was a lad.
 

Missburty

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Why would FGW think that it was fraudulent?

They won't just say that without a very good reason to back it up.


There was no reason given. I don't lose tickets on purpose. Do they honestly expect someone to be able to afford to pay an additional £4k for travel that they have already paid for?!

I was advised by the man at the ticket office that the first thing they would do if they expected the claim was fraudulent that I would be called in for an interview. This didn't happen.
 

Darandio

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Do they honestly expect someone to be able to afford to pay an additional £4k for travel that they have already paid for?!

And do you honestly expect them to keep dishing out expensive tickets to someone who cannot seem to keep hold of one?
 

Urban Gateline

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The Gold Card has it's name because it is like a piece of gold, worth a great deal. It's like carrying thousands of pounds in your purse, if someone got hold of it they could use it, so because of fraud prevention TOC's may only re-issue it once, and I don't blame them!

Hypothetically you could give your gold card to your partner and claim to have "lost" it, get a duplicate, and hey, 2 people travelling for the price of 1 as photocards aren't always checked to see if they link to the gold card! Imagine if a second duplicate was issued, you could give that to someone else etc...the fraud possibilities increase.

Best place to keep it would be in a ticket wallet, not in your purse, in a separate pocket etc, and to only store it in one place at home where you know it won't get lost!
 

Missburty

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And do you honestly expect them to keep dishing out expensive tickets to someone who cannot seem to keep hold of one?

I have been a ticket holder for 5 years. I have requested 2 replacements. I work in London. The first time this was lost my coat was stolen. Not really worth wasting police time reporting as this happens all the time.

The second time it probably dropped out of my bag when I was paying for cab. I tried contacting lost property but they don't have on at Reading Hackney cabs. I have spent over £20k on travel over 5 years and just would expect slightly better customer care for what is my 2nd request in 5 years.

Thanks anyway
 

Harlesden

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A little harsh, Darandio. It does seem to be a lady we are addressing - or am I just old fashioned.
I would ask if 12 months had passed between the two losses. I think there might be a limit to one replacement in any 12-months period. Seems harsh but certainly an enticement to take very good care of your expensive and very valuable ticket
 

Darandio

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A little harsh, Darandio. It does seem to be a lady we are addressing - or am I just old fashioned.

Not really? Why do we have to tread on eggshells when offering an opinion? In this situation, that is completely irrelevant.
 

Urban Gateline

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I have been a ticket holder for 5 years. I have requested 2 replacements. I work in London. The first time this was lost my coat was stolen. Not really worth wasting police time reporting as this happens all the time.

The second time it probably dropped out of my bag when I was paying for cab. I tried contacting lost property but they don't have on at Reading Hackney cabs. I have spent over £20k on travel over 5 years and just would expect slightly better customer care for what is my 2nd request in 5 years.

Thanks anyway

The point is though that these are two times in one year that you needed a replacement, the 5 years total travel is irrelevant as it is the short space of time in between getting it issued losing the duplicate that results in refusal to replace it. Yes they may be 2 genuine events, but if you didn't get a police report then you aren't helping yourself, as has been said the ticket is worth alot of money!

Why not travel with SWT instead, I'm sure your Reading->London season will be cheaper than with FGW, trains take longer though!
 

Missburty

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A little harsh, Darandio. It does seem to be a lady we are addressing - or am I just old fashioned.
I would ask if 12 months had passed between the two losses. I think there might be a limit to one replacement in any 12-months period. Seems harsh but certainly an enticement to take very good care of your expensive and very valuable ticket

The first claim was for in Jan 2011 but on my season ticket Jun 2010/2011. This claim was on my new ticket June 11/12. So i guess it's how you would translate a 12 month period.

I appreciate that these are valuable and fraud has to be considered. I would be happy to go in for an interview but this was not offered as an option.
 

Old Timer

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I have spent over £20k on travel over 5 years and just would expect slightly better customer care for what is my 2nd request in 5 years.

Thanks anyway
And how many free replacements would make you feel that you were getting good "customer care" ?

Your attitude to the Gold Card is expressed neatly by the fact that despite its worth and value you could not even be bothered to report it stolen to the Police.

Would you expect M&S to replace a skirt or a cota that you lost ?

Did you go back to where you had bought the stolen coat and demand a replacement ? and if not then why not ?

The Americans have a saying for this situation - "**** happens". I would add to that the need for you to accept some responsibility for looking after valuable possessions.
 

hairyhandedfool

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I have been a ticket holder for 5 years. I have requested 2 replacements. I work in London. The first time this was lost my coat was stolen. Not really worth wasting police time reporting as this happens all the time....

The rules are the same for everyone, there is no bias. In hindsight, if you had reported the season to the police as stolen the fist time you might have been allowed another this time, but it's too late to do anything about that now.

....I would ask if 12 months had passed between the two losses. I think there might be a limit to one replacement in any 12-months period. Seems harsh but certainly an enticement to take very good care of your expensive and very valuable ticket

Not quite, but close.....

National Rail Conditions of Carriage said:
34. Lost, stolen or mislaid tickets

If you lose or mislay a Season Ticket (or a Smartcard containing a Season Ticket) or it is
stolen, unless Condition 32 applies, the Train Company which sold it will arrange for it to
be replaced with a duplicate Season Ticket or, if relevant, a duplicate Smartcard provided
that:

(a) you tell staff at the office from which it was bought as soon as you
reasonably can and, if required, you give a reasonable explanation for
the loss;

(b) you agree to return immediately the lost Season Ticket, or Smartcard
containing a Season Ticket, if you find it, to the office from which it was
bought;

(c) the lost Season Ticket is valid for one month or longer; and

(d) you pay a reasonable administrative charge (not exceeding £20) for the issue of
the duplicate Season Ticket.

Only one duplicate will normally be allowed for any lost or stolen Season Ticket. However,
a second duplicate will usually be allowed if:

(i) the original Season Ticket or Smartcard containing a Season Ticket is
returned to the Train Company which sold it within one month of it having been
told of the loss; or

(ii) the first or second request for a duplicate was a result of a verifiable theft,
robbery, fire, or other exceptional circumstances which have been reported to the
police, the fire service or another appropriate organisation.

You will not, in any circumstances, be issued with more than two duplicate Season Tickets
in any 12 month period.
 

Mojo

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I think that it is fair to offer replacements, but only up to a certain number per year. Unlike with a physical product (eg. a coat) there is no true loss to the company in replacing it, but only as long as they can guarantee that no other customer is using it! I am not sure, with the ancient technology used on the railways how that is managed, but of course with Smartcard technology and the ability to remotely hotlist cards should mean that there is no issue with replacing it unlimited times (provided the customer pays the relevant admin. fees) when it becomes available.

As the OP states, the previous 'loss' occurred under a different ticket, so I would get back in touch with First Great Western and ask on what grounds they are denying a replacement, as if the conditions are as Old Timer asserts (''If you are unfortunate enough to lose your ticket for the second time during its validity, you will need to buy a new Season Ticket at the normal price'') then the OP should be given a replacement as per the conditions of issue.
 

John @ home

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This is Clause 2 from the conditions of issue.

2. Lost or Stolen Tickets. If your Season Ticket is lost or stolen during its validity, you must immediately report the loss to the offi ce where it was issued. You will be asked to complete and sign a duplicate application form. Subject to the conditions shown in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and an administration fee, your ticket could be replaced. Should you subsequently find your lost Season Ticket this MUST be returned to a First Great Western station. If you are unfortunate enough to lose your ticket for the second time during its validity, you will need to buy a new Season Ticket at the normal price subject to the conditions detailed in Section H of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

These conditions have applied to season tickets since Adam was a lad.
But are these the current Conditions?

The Season ticket conditions on the National Rail Enquiries site include:
Lost or stolen Season Tickets or photocards

If you lose your Season Ticket or it is stolen, report this immediately to the ticket office where you bought it. You should also report this to the police. If you or we cannot recover the lost or stolen ticket, we will then consider an application for a duplicate ticket, if the original was issued for a period of one month or more. We do not issue duplicates in respect of lost or stolen 7 Day Season Tickets. We may ask you or others for information. There is an administration charge when we issue a duplicate Season Ticket (see section 9).

We only allow one duplicate issue in any 12 month period. However, we will only allow a second duplicate issue if:
  • the original Season Ticket is returned to the train company which sold it within one month of you reporting the loss; or
  • the first or second request for a duplicate was because of theft, robbery, fire or other exceptional circumstances, the facts of which have been reported to the police, the fire service or another appropriate body. We will not issue any more than two duplicate Season Tickets in any 12 month period under any circumstances.
We will refund (with no administration charge) the cost of tickets you buy while you are waiting for the duplicate ticket to be issued, if you hand these tickets in.

If you lose your photocard or it is stolen, we can issue a new one, for which a further passport-type photograph is required. If we need to reissue your Season Ticket, an administration charge will be made (see section 9).
I think the NRE version is the up-to-date one rather than the FGW one because the latter refers to NRCoC Section H. The current Section H is entitled "Train Service Disruption" and its four paragraphs deal with
  • Compensation for delays
  • Help from Train Companies if you are stranded
  • Circumstances that are within a Train Company’s control
  • Circumstances that are not within a Train Company’s control
None of that appears relevant to loss of a Season ticket. Condition 34 quoted by hairyhandedfool is in Section F, not Section H.

If the NRE version is indeed the current one, at least the OP will know the circumstances in which a second replacement may be considered.
 

Missburty

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And how many free replacements would make you feel that you were getting good "customer care" ?

Your attitude to the Gold Card is expressed neatly by the fact that despite its worth and value you could not even be bothered to report it stolen to the Police.

Would you expect M&S to replace a skirt or a cota that you lost ?

Did you go back to where you had bought the stolen coat and demand a replacement ? and if not then why not ?

The Americans have a saying for this situation - "**** happens". I would add to that the need for you to accept some responsibility for looking after valuable possessions.

I didn't come here to argue but ask for advice

A couple of points
1) The Met police have enough to do. Stolen bags and coats in London are commonplace and I didn't really want to waste their time
2) No i wouldn't expect M&S to replace a coat, but that coat wouldn't have an additional clause where I could expect another 7months worth of coats that have paid for in advance. If I was a BA frequent flyer and I lost a ticket I would expect a better hearing than 'sorry we cannot replace a ticket worth £4000.

I do take responsibility and this whole thing is actually quite distressing because If I can't get a replacement I simply cannot afford to go to work.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But are these the current Conditions?

The Season ticket conditions on the National Rail Enquiries site include:

I think the NRE version is the up-to-date one rather than the FGW one because the latter refers to NRCoC Section H. The current Section H is entitled "Train Service Disruption" and its four paragraphs deal with
  • Compensation for delays
  • Help from Train Companies if you are stranded
  • Circumstances that are within a Train Company’s control
  • Circumstances that are not within a Train Company’s control
None of that appears relevant to loss of a Season ticket. Condition 34 quoted by hairyhandedfool is in Section F, not Section H.

If the NRE version is indeed the current one, at least the OP will know the circumstances in which a second replacement may be considered.

I guess I will have to wait for the appeal. I doubt it'll help if I retrospectively report this to the police.
 

Darandio

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1) The Met police have enough to do. Stolen bags and coats in London are commonplace and I didn't really want to waste their time

This is a very important issue which works against you though. If you had reported the theft, you would then have an identifiable crime number which could in turn be then used to support your case should this type of thing happen.

The police are there to do a job, let them do it, don't just assume you are wasting their time. I completely understand your intentions, it just hasn't helped your situation.
 

sheff1

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The first time this was lost my coat was stolen. Not really worth wasting police time reporting as this happens all the time.

I assume you are saying the 'lost' ticket was in your stolen coat. If so, how can reporting something worth £4000 as stolen be thought of as wasting police time ?

I have sent a letter of appeal but would appreciate advice. .

I suggest you consider buying shorter duration tickets. Might be more expensive on paper, but not if you lose any more. You could possibly purchase the tickets to fit round your holidays etc - maybe get one for 3 months and 2 days, then go away for a fortnight, and get another ticket on your return and so on. That way the extra overall cost of the shorter duration tickets will actually cover your travel for more than a calendar year.
 

Old Timer

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I didn't come here to argue but ask for advice

A couple of points
1) The Met police have enough to do. Stolen bags and coats in London are commonplace and I didn't really want to waste their time
2) No i wouldn't expect M&S to replace a coat, but that coat wouldn't have an additional clause where I could expect another 7months worth of coats that have paid for in advance. If I was a BA frequent flyer and I lost a ticket I would expect a better hearing than 'sorry we cannot replace a ticket worth £4000.

I do take responsibility and this whole thing is actually quite distressing because If I can't get a replacement I simply cannot afford to go to work.
I dont seek to argue with you - simply to understand WHY you feel the Railway ALONE has this special duty to provide you with presumably limitless free duplicate tickets ?

You yourself have now admitted that you would not expect M&S to replace your lost coat yet you expect FGW not only to replace one but TWO lost tickets ??

I can definitely assure you (as a former BA frequent flyer) and current (Non BA Frequent flyer) - you can measure my mileage each year in six figures by the way - that NO airline would even contemplate giving you a free ticket if you turned up claiming it had been lost without some form of proof and a fee.!

From KLMs website
What should I do in case I lost my ticket or e-ticket?

In case your paper ticket gets lost or stolen it is possible for KLM to create a duplicate. KLM ticket offices can issue this duplicate, the lost or stolen ticket will then be invalidated. Proof of theft or lost needs to be provided and a duplicate fee applies.


The difference here is that the airline can protect against illegal use of a lost or stolen ticket whilst the Railway cannot, and the replacement of any season ticket is a goodwill gesture. There is no responsibility for any train operating company to do so, let alone on multiple occasions.
 

MikeWh

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The Met police have enough to do. Stolen bags and coats in London are commonplace and I didn't really want to waste their time

Unfortunately this wasn't just a stolen coat though, it was a stolen coat containing a ticket worth several thousand pounds. Would you have reported it if it had contained a similarly expensive item of jewelery?

Whilst some of the posts here have regretably been less than helpful, I think the advice to be taken forward is to value your season ticket a little more and to report it stolen if that happens again, which hopefully it won't. It appears that there is not much that can be done about this current loss, and I do sympathise. It's a hard lesson to learn.

If FGW won't budge then maybe the thing to do is to suffer the slightly longer journey time and give your business to SWT, at least for a month or so while you try to work out how to afford the replacement. Bear in mind that the fares go up in January so you probably want to aim to have sorted yourself out by then if at all possible.
 

DaveNewcastle

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For what its worth . . .
I work in London. The first time this was lost my coat was stolen. Not really worth wasting police time reporting as this happens all the time.
I suffered a loss through theft in London just 2 weeks ago (ironically outside the Royal Courts of Justice) but I did report it to the Met immediately, without any expectation of recovery, on the grounds that they need to be aware of as much detail of the pattern of crime which they are required to detect, investigate, manage, report and advise. Without that knowledge, they are handicapped.
I was also thanked repeatedly for my information, despite the fact that the value of my loss was a tiny fraction of yours (and they gave me a Crime number which could have been helpful to you) and will never be able to 'solve' my crime.

I feel tremendous sympathy towards the plight in which you find yourself, and wish you every good fortune in your appeal to FGW, but (and with some embarrassment in case I give offence), this whole story keeps ringing bells in my mind which are the bells of Lady Bracknell's shrill tones in Oscar Wilde's "Importance of Being Earnest":-
'To loose one parent may be regarded as a misfortune.
To loose both looks like carelessness'


(I'm sorry. You won't find that amusing or helpful at all)
 

yorkie

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The problem is, if someone posts along the lines of "Do they honestly expect someone to be able to afford to pay an additional £4k for travel that they have already paid for?!" that is asking for an argument, and the replies are inevitable though regrettable and I wish people were a bit nicer at times toward new members! I don't think the coat analogy works, but you could use a similar analogy for something like a Season ticket for a football club.

I strongly disagree that the theft of a coat containing a ticket worth £4000+ is not worth reporting to the police. The conditions state that such a theft should be reported. If it had been, then the outcome this time may have been different, and in the customers' favour.

Where are you commuting from?
 

Missburty

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'If FGW won't budge then maybe the thing to do is to suffer the slightly longer journey time and give your business to SWT, at least for a month or so while you try to work out how to afford the replacement. Bear in mind that the fares go up in January so you probably want to aim to have sorted yourself out by then if at all possible.[/QUOTE]'

There is no difference in price :cry:

My major issue is I am still paying my season ticket loan until Jun 12 and can't really afford to pay double, but that's my issue and I will have to wait to see what comes out of the appeal
 

AlterEgo

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OK, I think the OP gets the drift....

In terms of help, I really can't offer any other solution than by writing to the Chief Executive of FGW. I doubt Customer Relations will be able to deal with such an issue involving such a huge sum of money:

Mark Hopwood
First Great Western Head Office
Milford House
1 Milford Street
Swindon
SN1 1HL

08457 000 125
 

Missburty

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The problem is, if someone posts along the lines of "Do they honestly expect someone to be able to afford to pay an additional £4k for travel that they have already paid for?!" that is asking for an argument, and the replies are inevitable though regrettable and I wish people were a bit nicer at times toward new members! I don't think the coat analogy works, but you could use a similar analogy for something like a Season ticket for a football club.

I strongly disagree that the theft of a coat containing a ticket worth £4000+ is not worth reporting to the police. The conditions state that such a theft should be reported. If it had been, then the outcome this time may have been different, and in the customers' favour.

Where are you commuting from?

If i'd known of the conditions before i may have acted differently.

I commute from Reading
 

Old Timer

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...As the OP states, the previous 'loss' occurred under a different ticket, so I would get back in touch with First Great Western and ask on what grounds they are denying a replacement, as if the conditions are as Old Timer asserts (''If you are unfortunate enough to lose your ticket for the second time during its validity, you will need to buy a new Season Ticket at the normal price'') then the OP should be given a replacement as per the conditions of issue.
No TOC even BR would replace a second lost ticket. The clause could be set out better but in effect tries (badly) to explain that if for example you had a Jun to Jun ticket you could have it replaced in December but not again, but that if you lost the renewal in say September then you could get a repalcement for that.

I think the wording is pretty poor, but then having looked at a large Company who managed to so poorly write a tender clarification so as to vary back into the Contract something which will cost an awful lot of money - when the client had agreed to exclude it - nothing surprises me about the inability of the average Briton in a Company to read and write or even understand complex subject matter, let alone write something in an accurate brief and clear form.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If i'd known of the conditions before i may have acted differently.

I commute from Reading
With respect and without wishing to be acused of being horrid to you, the conditions were on the back of the application form and again are on the website.

There is an old legal saying that the devil is in the detail, and one should read carefully before signing.

An expensive lesson I am afraid.
 

michael769

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1) The Met police have enough to do. Stolen bags and coats in London are commonplace and I didn't really want to waste their time

Which is one reason they employ civilian admin staff. The police understand that a crime number is needed by the public in many cases.

2) No i wouldn't expect M&S to replace a coat, but that coat wouldn't have an additional clause where I could expect another 7months worth of coats that have paid for in advance.
But you would expect that coat to continue to be usable for another 7 months.

I do take responsibility and this whole thing is actually quite distressing because If I can't get a replacement I simply cannot afford to go to work.

Have you checked your household insurance policy to see they will cover it? Many policies have cover for valuables carried on your person outside the home. I don't know if it would cover a travel ticket but there is no harm in asking.
 

Missburty

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OK, I think the OP gets the drift....

In terms of help, I really can't offer any other solution than by writing to the Chief Executive of FGW. I doubt Customer Relations will be able to deal with such an issue involving such a huge sum of money:

Mark Hopwood
First Great Western Head Office
Milford House
1 Milford Street
Swindon
SN1 1HL

08457 000 125


I have sent my letter to appeal and offered to come for an interview. Also with my company and bosses details. I will wait for the response and if all else fails use the contact you have kindly given me. Thank you

Missburty
 
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