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Gold card refused replacement

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jon0844

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If you lost your passport, I am pretty sure you will pay the full price for a new one!

That also has a photo and is generally checked quite thoroughly.

A bad comparison perhaps?
 
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AlterEgo

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If you lost your passport, I am pretty sure you will pay the full price for a new one!

That also has a photo and is generally checked quite thoroughly.

A bad comparison perhaps?

A passport is a right of a citizen (and probably being denied one unfairly would be deemed a breach of Human Rights - freedom of movement etc).

A railway ticket isn't. It's a privilege, and a private contract too.

We have to accept that tickets aren't magic, or perfect. They never will be; Smartcards will be great, but they will bring their own problems (and a unique wave of complaining!) Season tickets are adequate (but no more) in their current form.

It really does astonish me that someone would part with four grand and not read basic conditions. With everything I buy over a certain value, I always check out:

a) Can I get a refund? If so, under what conditions?
b) What if it doesn't work?
c) What happens if I lose it?
d) How does this product benefit me? (With tickets etc, what can I do with the ticket?)

People really do hand over thousands of pounds blindly, without a thought as to what they're signing up to. Amazing.

In any case, I think the poster has learnt a hard lesson (even through the shock of being told "no refund or replacement"), and deserves our help.
 

DaveNewcastle

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[I've refrained from much comment on this thread because of the volatility of responses that are likely/inevitable from debate over such a high-value product. But I might see a benefit from re-joining now]

The unfortunate Original Poster is facing a massive financial loss and we've all had the opportunity to comment. People have also looked forward to different future systems of ticketing.
Here we're talking about having to keep in one's wallet or purse a small, badly printed piece of card (mine's now almost unreadable with 3 months to run) with a replacement cost the same as a small car. At least in Victorian times season tickets were substantial affairs reflecting their value!
Electronic ticketing proposals are being discussed right now. These could bring great advantages, but if poorly devised and implemented, could make life even worse for passengers and for staff.
While hindsight helps us all to criticise the current regieme (whether attributing blame to the passenger or the TOC, I care not) what can we devise that assists Missburty and at the same time assits all other passengers, FGW and all the other TOCs?

As I proposed earlier, ticketing carries complex and well-established procedures which are going to be a great challenge to improve on. If the commentators on this forum have the accumulated knowledge, imagination and experience that it has boasted on other matters, can we, collectively, propose a better system for the future than ATOC, its members and its governmental client are likely to introduce?
 

sheff1

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As I proposed earlier, ticketing carries complex and well-established procedures which are going to be a great challenge to improve on. If the commentators on this forum have the accumulated knowledge, imagination and experience that it has boasted on other matters, can we, collectively, propose a better system for the future than ATOC, its members and its governmental client are likely to introduce?

It's possible. And if ATOC/DfT or whoever wish to offer a contract at the appropriate daily consultancy rate then I, for one, would be happy to contribute :).
 

Oswyntail

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...
To my mind, the most worrying of these is (b) as it often renders the unfortunate or forgetfull passenger indistiguishable from the determined fare evader. One of the historic inheritances under (d) is the unusual status of the Ticket, it is not quite a receipt, not quite a 'permit to travel' but more of a token representing quite a complex value and carring permissions which can vary over time and place and can be subject to conditions which themselves may change. ....
Good analysis. The antiquity of the legal framework needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency. Too many aspects of the company/customer interface have been allowed to grow organically without proper analysis.

Which requires the passenger to provide the ticket thta has been issued. :roll:
So why is a TOC finding it so difficult to issue the replacement? No one is suggesting she should be allowed to travel simply by saying "I had a ticket but lost it". But the TOC know she had bought it; there is no evidence that she is using the ticket fraudulently, or even that the ticket is being used. I suggest they are simply hiding behind the "rules is rules" answer, yet again :roll::roll:
 

snail

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I'm not trying to travel without a ticket, which is another thing entirely.
Equally nonsense. If you've lost the ticket and travel you must be travelling without it.

The argument comes down to a difference of opinion over the item of value here. You say it's the 'right to travel'; I say it's the ticket itself. As others have said, until there is a secure system in place to cancel tickets then I can't see it working any other way.
 

Old Timer

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...So why is a TOC finding it so difficult to issue the replacement? No one is suggesting she should be allowed to travel simply by saying "I had a ticket but lost it". But the TOC know she had bought it; there is no evidence that she is using the ticket fraudulently, or even that the ticket is being used. I suggest they are simply hiding behind the "rules is rules" answer, yet again :roll::roll:
If you had bothered to read the whole, thread you would understand that FGW place a restriction on the issue of two free replacements for "lost" season tickets in the 12 month period after the date of issue of the first.

This is not at all unreasonable.

The Lady had her first stolen but reported it as "lost", when she lost the next season ticket, she reported that as "lost" as was advised that in accordance with the Ts&Cs which are printed on the application form that she was not eligible for the second repalcement.

She THEN decided to report the original as stolen not lost. Obviously FGW see this as a means of circumventing the rules. FGW have simply complied with the Ts&Cs that she signed up to, she now wants to be out of that agreement and wants a second replacement in circumstances that she agreed would not be replaceable unless FGW accept her original ticket as stolen.

The lady openly admitted that she could not be bothered to report it or the coat in which is was being carried as stolen, therefore there is no crime reference or any proof that this was the case, simply a change of reason for the loss of the first ONLY when she was refused a replacement for a second lost ticket. Is it any wonder FGW are less than willing to replace in these circumstances ?

We are back once again to an increasing unwillingness of people in these modern days to accept any form of personal responsibility. Everything else is someone else's fault and if previously acceptable rules are now disadvantageous they must be automatic wrong/unfair, and the person becomes the victim of a corporate organisation.

The analogy of losing a contract mobile phone is actually quite apt. The owner remains responsible for the payment of the whole period of the contract, and will NEVER be issued with a free replacement. The mobile provider could shut down the sim card and phone in a matter of minutes, thus removing any opportunity to use the lost phone, yet they will not countenance releasing the owner from the contract. I do not see the emotional argument about THAT being played out anywhere.

As I have asked on many many occasions now, when will someone explain why the Railway is expected to meet demands for refunds and replacements in circumstances that no other Industry is expected to or indeed would do ?


Why is it that people want the Railway to absolutely honour its half of the Ts&Cs yet want to opt out of their part of the agreement when it no longer suits ?

The comment by Lady Bracknell in Wilde's "The Importance of Being Earnest" is absolutely spot on in this situation.
 
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Oswyntail

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If you had bothered to read the whole, thread you would understand that FGW place a restriction on the issue of two free replacements for "lost" season tickets in the 12 month period after the date of issue of the first.

This is not at all unreasonable.
Old (May I call you Old, as it has the same patronising tone you seem to adopt in your one-eyed pronouncements?), if you had bothered to read the thread, you would have grasped that many contributors do think it is unreasonable, and have given many cogent reasons. Just denying it - again - does not aid the discussion. In fact, it is not discussion at all
...
........
Why is it that people want the Railway to absolutely honour its half of the Ts&Cs yet want to opt out of their part of the agreement when it no longer suits ?....
Because those Ts&Cs are archaic, and, in many areas, have not changed in any way in response to legislation in the field of consumer protection since they were introduced. The world has moved on since the old times. As I understand it, you have in your time been involved in infrastructure. Over the decades best practice and regulations have changed in that field, both in response to legislation and a changing public attitude towards safety (inter alia). I presume you have yourself adopted these changes Why can you not accept that change might be required in the company/customer interface?
Lady Bracknell's remark might equally apply to your trotting out the "rules is rules" argument.
 

jon0844

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I think people have accepted that things could, and should, change. Smartcards are the only effective way to solve the problem - and they WILL happen nationally one day.

But, the T&Cs are what they are. Yes, we can moan about them and we can also refuse to accept them, by not getting an annual ticket.

Some TOCs allow you to get monthly tickets by direct debit, then give a free month at the end. Not quite as good as a Gold Card, but at least you'd get a new ticket every 30 days or so in case you lost one.
 

talltim

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There's two different parts to this thread and much if the argument seems to be due to them getting mixed up. With regards to Missburty's situation, there's not much she can do except appeal to the goodwill of the TOC. With regards to the long term direction of season ticketing the seems to be a consensus (with possibly a few exceptions) that there should be a move towards smart to letting and an update on the conditions to go with it. I don't think anyone is arguing that MissBurty has a legal leg to stand on, or even a moral one really
 

Oswyntail

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.... I don't think anyone is arguing that MissBurty has a legal leg to stand on, or even a moral one really
A legal one might possibly arise from unfair conditions (can be debated); morally, I would disagree with you.
 

talltim

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I'm talking moral as in the T&Cs existed at the time of purchase. There is no evidence that the ticket was mis-sold or that the T&Cs are unclear (about this matter at least). Whether the T&Cs should say what they do is the other argument.
Fairness of the T&Cs is a matter of interpretation, but I would be willing to bet that whatever legal body was asked to examine them would find them fair.
Again, whether there should be sea change away from 'paying for a ticket' towards 'paying for a service' is the other argument
 
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Missburty

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If you had bothered to read the whole, thread you would understand that FGW place a restriction on the issue of two free replacements for "lost" season tickets in the 12 month period after the date of issue of the first.

She THEN decided to report the original as stolen not lost. Obviously FGW see this as a means of circumventing the rules. FGW have simply complied with the Ts&Cs that she signed up to, she now wants to be out of that agreement and wants a second replacement in circumstances that she agreed would not be replaceable unless FGW accept her original ticket as stolen.
.

Dear Old Timer.

I haven't changed my original report. I haven't gone back and reported this as stolen (I asked the police advise in this matter and was told that you cannot retrospectively report something as stolen).
 

jon0844

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I know the police all too easily take little interest in certain crimes, but it would be particularly unfair to expect them to investigate a crime that happened many months ago.

If FGW does change its mind, I presume you are going to seek some sort of insurance on the ticket going forward? Yes, it means an additional cost that will impact on the saving you made with an annual ticket, but you don't really have a lot of choice!
 

Missburty

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I know the police all too easily take little interest in certain crimes, but it would be particularly unfair to expect them to investigate a crime that happened many months ago.

I wasn't really expecting them to. Just following the advice from some people on this forum


If FGW does change its mind, I presume you are going to seek some sort of insurance on the ticket going forward? Yes, it means an additional cost that will impact on the saving you made with an annual ticket, but you don't really have a lot of choice!

Yes - if I do get my ticket replaced the first thing I will do is look into some insurance!
 

richw

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If you lost your passport, I am pretty sure you will pay the full price for a new one!

That also has a photo and is generally checked quite thoroughly.

A bad comparison perhaps?


The passport agency charge you full price for a replacement if you get married and change your name. Having married a month ago, my wifes passport had 9 1/2 years left on it, having been renewed to travel a few months before the wedding. I am appalled that we are expected to pay full price on the name change!
 

snail

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The passport agency charge you full price for a replacement
Again, not a good comparison with a rail ticket. The passport agency charge is meant to cover the admin costs of producing the document, which are pretty high. You aren't paying for the right to travel.
 

jon0844

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Well, if it's a consolation; my wife lost her passport within about a week of getting a new one - so she had to pay the full price. Given she's Swedish and she had to get it from the London embassy, it's almost £100 more to get here than in Sweden!
 

ji459

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I asked the police advise in this matter and was told that you cannot retrospectively report something as stolen.

I love it! Yes, the police will only accept reports of theft in advance, before the item has been stolen LOL! You must have been speaking to Chief Wiggum from the Simpsons!
 

Missburty

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I love it! Yes, the police will only accept reports of theft in advance, before the item has been stolen LOL! You must have been speaking to Chief Wiggum from the Simpsons!

Should have said 'restrospectively after such long period of time' :oops:
 

PTF62

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I know the police all too easily take little interest in certain crimes, but it would be particularly unfair to expect them to investigate a crime that happened many months ago.

You seriously think that the police would investigate the theft of a season ticket? A crime number is all you would get.

If FGW does change its mind, I presume you are going to seek some sort of insurance on the ticket going forward? Yes, it means an additional cost that will impact on the saving you made with an annual ticket, but you don't really have a lot of choice!

As I mentioned before, I am not aware of any insurance company that will insure a £4,000 season ticket. If you know of one, please let me know.

It seems to me that both the ticket holder and the TOC have some responsiblity here, but the TOC could do more.

If a ticket is lost/stolen and the TOC refuses to replace, then the ticket holder certainly loses the whole value of the ticket. However the TOC only possibly loses some revenue if, and only if, someone decides to use the ticket fraudulently. That seems unbalanced to me.

I fail to understand the argument regarding photocards. Either the point is to ensure only the right person uses the ticket, or it isn't. Saying that it is too hard/timeconsuming to check means that there is not point in having them. Personally I think that if a TOC cannot find a fraudlently used ticket when I would expect them to have six oportunities each and every day to inspect the ticket and photocard, then putting the problem back on the person who has lost their ticket, doesn't exactly seem fair.

As an aside, if a ticket that was lost/stolen and not replaced found to be being used fraudlently, would the TOC notify the person that had not had their ticket replaced, so they could have the oportunity to sue the person who had their ticket for for their loss?
 

jon0844

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If the police ever found the ticket, they might at least notify the owner or TOC after doing some checks and seeing it was reported. They could find it after an unrelated arrest or raid.

If not reported, they might just tear it up as BTP did when I gave an officer a credit card I found at King's Cross. I was told the owner would simply cancel and request a new one.

Fine for a bank card perhaps, and it did prevent any illegal use, but not so good for the OP that doesn't know it isn't being used (and nor does the TOC).
 

Bedpan

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I can't see that the TOC are losing anything whether or not the ticket is being used. If it isn't being used by somebody else (which seems more than likely unless by coincidence the finder is a Reading - London commuter) the TOC are gaining because Miss Burty has to pay again (ie for a second time) for each journey she makes.
Whilst one might conceivably accuse Missburty of being naieve for not reading her terms and conditions, I don't think that anybody could accuse her of being dishonest. Over the years I've lost count of the number of people who have claimed a lost item as being stolen (and reported it to the police as such) in order to make a claim.
 

Oswyntail

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If the police ever found the ticket, they might at least notify the owner or TOC.....
I've just had a wicked little thought (Moi?). IIRC, the ticket remains the property of the TOC (which tends to support those who assert that it represents a right to travel, so reissuing should not be a problem). Should it not, therefore, be the TOC that insures it, or takes the hit if it is lost? If I lend my phone to a friend who is then mugged, I wouldn't expect them to buy me a new phone!
 

michael769

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If I lend my phone to a friend who is then mugged, I wouldn't expect them to buy me a new phone!

But if they dropped it in their toilet you might!

I don't think creating analogies with other things really helps. Train tickets are very different to mobiles or M&S coats. As Dave has already noted they are bound up with T&Cs and 100 year old laws that don't always map well to the modern world.

The OP has fallen foul of those very T&Cs in this case, T&Cs to which she agreed (it was her choice to agree to them without reading them). As others have pointed out arguing the rights and wrongs don't help her get this sorted out - those who feel she has been ill treated would do well to lobby their MPs to put pressure on the DfT and the ORR to force ATOC and the TOCs to update the T&Cs to be more favourable to travellers. That is IMO the only way that this will be improved - and even that is a very slim possibility.
 

exile

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I suspect the technology would have to be implemented to make a ticket only usable by the passenger that is authorised to use it, before the T and Cs are likely to change. However the whole line about TOCs not being able to check photo cards is a bit pathetic. I suppose a determined fraudster could forge a photo card to go with the ticket - but then they may as well go the whole hog and forge the ticket as well! And if it's never checked, then there's no chance of being caught doing so.
 

hairyhandedfool

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.... I suppose a determined fraudster could forge a photo card to go with the ticket - but then they may as well go the whole hog and forge the ticket as well! And if it's never checked, then there's no chance of being caught doing so.

If you have gone as far as stealing the season ticket (or maybe you just found it), chances are you also have the correct photocard for it. Forging a ticket however, is far more complex.
 

EM2

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You seriously think that the police would investigate the theft of a season ticket? A crime number is all you would get.
The season ticket was in a coat that was stolen. If it had been reported, the police could see if it had anything in common with other thefts, e.g. the location. They then may well check CCTV if they have found a pattern of thefts in this place. They could then identify a suspect. This person may be known to them.
But of course, if it's not reported they can't do any of that...
 
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