Isn't it worth going to a lot of trouble to forge something worth £5k?
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Gold card refused replacement
- Thread starter Missburty
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Isn't it worth going to a lot of trouble to forge something worth £5k?
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This thread is certainly getting quite opinionated so I must add a little observation of my own for those who keep pointing out the train companies obligations to ensure all travel documents are closely inspected. I travel frequently on my senior card & the amount of huffing & puffing I see from fellow passengers when railcards or photocards are requested by the guard is unbelievable. Many is the day I've heard the jobsworth comments afterwards & faced with this barrage daily I'm sure a lot of staff must find it very tiresome & time consuming.
EM2
Established Member
Eh? Surely a season needs to be checked whenever someone travels with it?
hairyhandedfool
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I don't really know, I guess it depends on how long you would get to use it before being detected and at what cost it comes, but my point really is you hardly need any effort or cost if you 'acquired' someone else's season ticket.
I travel twice a day on the train, and I don't recall ever, not even once, hearing anybody huff & puff when asked by an RPI to see their ticket, they merely show it (and the photocard) when asked.
The only time I have heard anyone make an adverse comment, is when they have been caught without a ticket, or the wrong type of ticket on an early evening train (yes it is FCC).
I'm sorry to take this slightly off topic (but as it has already happened above quite alot anyway...)
I carry a Gold card, and have often been concerned about its worth ever since the first day I bought it and the display clearly stated £2280 (I know not alot by some peoples standards) and the guy behind me said something along the lines of "Blimey! I probably shouldn't have seen that!"
I'm sure it will be shot down as it only just popped into my head and I haven't really thought it through, aside from smart cards etc and more advanced solutions, wouldnt a potential idea be you your money for effectively a virtual season ticket at the start of the year, which maybe emails you a reference number which in combination with your credit card allows you to pick up a weekly season ticket each week from a quickticket machine. Obviously its a hassle to keep picking it up so they could make it optional for people who don't want to do it.
The way I see it your maximum loss would be a weekly season, next week you can collect your new one.
I carry a Gold card, and have often been concerned about its worth ever since the first day I bought it and the display clearly stated £2280 (I know not alot by some peoples standards) and the guy behind me said something along the lines of "Blimey! I probably shouldn't have seen that!"
I'm sure it will be shot down as it only just popped into my head and I haven't really thought it through, aside from smart cards etc and more advanced solutions, wouldnt a potential idea be you your money for effectively a virtual season ticket at the start of the year, which maybe emails you a reference number which in combination with your credit card allows you to pick up a weekly season ticket each week from a quickticket machine. Obviously its a hassle to keep picking it up so they could make it optional for people who don't want to do it.
The way I see it your maximum loss would be a weekly season, next week you can collect your new one.
Great idea! Slight element of hassle in having to collect the ticket every week but could be very popular. And wouldn't be that costly to implement. Alternatively, buy 10 monthly seasons in advance and get the next 2 free, something like that.
The most valuable single items I own are, in order:-
1. house
2. car
3. season ticket
4. piano
5. television
And yet I'm expected to carry item 3 around with me almost every day.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Or, if you had an expired ticket of your own and were a dab hand at calligraphy.
If no-one ever checks, then the possibilities are endless.
It won't be shot down from here, that sounds like a bloody good idea. There are some details which might need fine tuning, like what happens when your credit card expires midway through the term of the ticket, or you change your card for whatever reason, but as a potential solution it certainly has some mileage. Weekly might be too frequently, perhaps monthly would be better, with the ability to pick up the next months ticket early if you wish. In some cases this might also alleviate the problem of the magstripe wearing out and requiring a replacement anyway. Perhaps a gold record card (like the Oyster issued tickets have) could be given to validate the entitlement to benefits.
Thanks for actually coming up with a constructive suggestion.
i take number 2 everywhere with me, bit harder to lose though!
I agree. I think it is an idea that has merit, and it deserves to be seriously looked into. But by whom?
Yes - I haven't yet had my car fall out of my trouser pocket.
Network West Midlands offer the ability to pay for some of their monthly seasons by Direct Debit, saving £10.50 a month on the All Zone all mode one compared to paying by cash/card. Tickets are sent in the post each month.
Unlike a "normal" rail season, however, refunds aren't available for additional tickets purchased if you leave it at home or while you're waiting for a duplicate.
Cheers,
Barry
Unlike a "normal" rail season, however, refunds aren't available for additional tickets purchased if you leave it at home or while you're waiting for a duplicate.
Cheers,
Barry
I've heard people complain that they've had their ticket checked at the gate before boarding, so why the need to show it again. I am sure people would start getting very upset if an RPI took a season ticket from someone and removed the ticket/photo ID to properly inspect it, for signs of forgery. The passenger could quite likely feel like an accused criminal (and be embarrassed to boot) as it's not something that is often done - if ever.
If everyone had this done at regular intervals (i.e. a sting operation at different stations) that went to that level of checking, it would be fine as it would be 'normal' and nobody would feel like they're being victimised.
As it stands, such checks are not normal and nobody is checked like that. A cursory look at a photo and the ticket is not enough to detect a stolen or forged ticket, but that's how it is. There's no time for an RPI to even check the photo ID matches (it's smaller text on the ticket than the date) and so they're almost certainly checking only the date and perhaps the likeness of the photo, which is probably not even like the person. My old boss had the same photocard from the 1980s - and there was no requirement to update it. My photocard is from 2003..
The fact that I got away for years showing a Gold Card that didn't even cover the area I was travelling in (as I had the Oyster for the central London part) has made me assume I could travel anywhere in the NSE area without being caught having a season that covered a smaller area, as long as I wave the ticket fairly quickly (usually staff just say thanks as soon as they see a Gold coloured ticket).
Long before this thread started, I've suggested stings that check ALL season ticket holders - along with spotters to see those would inevitably turn around to avoid going through the check - both 'railside' and 'landside'. All with full police support.
Such checks would make it harder to fake a ticket, as of course it is worth faking a ticket if you can save £3,000, £4,000 or much more - knowing that regardless of the value, nobody really checks them properly. How unlucky would you have to be currently? Very, I'd say - and most likely only if someone grassed you up.
And, while it's not Gold Card stock - when I went home tonight, someone had left these on the ticket counter. Imagine how much that lot would be worth to someone with a decent printer and a means to programme the magstrip!!
BTW, I handed them to the gateline staff rather than taking them - or waiting for someone else to do so.
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EM2
Established Member
A manual barrier check isn't really practical. But Jeremy B was talking about on-train inspections.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
That's a bloody good idea. Possibly one of the most sensible I've ever seen on here.
Thanks for restoring some sense to this topic.
Yes, that is a very good idea.
As I said, FCC does a deal where you pay monthly (and get a monthly ticket sent in the post) with the last month free. But that's not quite as good a deal as the annual ticket paid up front.
However, if you had a system that you paid up-front as normal and just got a new one from a machine (or ticket office) every week, or month, that would be the perfect solution. I am sure it could be sold as a way of protecting an investment, perhaps at a slightly higher cost to account for the increased use of ticket stock, like an insurance policy.
I am guessing that as ATOC reads everything on this forum, they'll be looking at your idea right now - and ignoring it completely.
As I said, FCC does a deal where you pay monthly (and get a monthly ticket sent in the post) with the last month free. But that's not quite as good a deal as the annual ticket paid up front.
However, if you had a system that you paid up-front as normal and just got a new one from a machine (or ticket office) every week, or month, that would be the perfect solution. I am sure it could be sold as a way of protecting an investment, perhaps at a slightly higher cost to account for the increased use of ticket stock, like an insurance policy.
I am guessing that as ATOC reads everything on this forum, they'll be looking at your idea right now - and ignoring it completely.
Thanks for positive comments guys, as I said I didn't think the idea through in too much detail and its interesting to hear that some TOCs do have some sort of regular renewal option for monthlys with a discount (which I was not aware of).
As stated above discounts could be dealth with with the issue of a Gold Card Railcard effectively which must be shown when travelling with, or buying discounted tickets but on its own has no validity for travel.
I only suggested the credit card and reference number by email due to the fact that it is what is usual for prebooked tickets and therefore might be easier to implement with current machines, I'm not sure its the best solution (ie as stated above, with credit card expiry - but that could still be dealt with for example by logging into some Season ticket management site online).
As stated above discounts could be dealth with with the issue of a Gold Card Railcard effectively which must be shown when travelling with, or buying discounted tickets but on its own has no validity for travel.
I only suggested the credit card and reference number by email due to the fact that it is what is usual for prebooked tickets and therefore might be easier to implement with current machines, I'm not sure its the best solution (ie as stated above, with credit card expiry - but that could still be dealt with for example by logging into some Season ticket management site online).
:cry:Yes, that is a very good idea.
As I said, FCC does a deal where you pay monthly (and get a monthly ticket sent in the post) with the last month free. But that's not quite as good a deal as the annual ticket paid up front.
However, if you had a system that you paid up-front as normal and just got a new one from a machine (or ticket office) every week, or month, that would be the perfect solution. I am sure it could be sold as a way of protecting an investment, perhaps at a slightly higher cost to account for the increased use of ticket stock, like an insurance policy.
I am guessing that as ATOC reads everything on this forum, they'll be looking at your idea right now - and ignoring it completely.
I think this is a great idea. Not going to help me at present :cry: but still a great idea.
With regard to the ticket stock my encodement strip has failed at LEAST once a month on my (lost :cry: goldcard) so i don't think this would be too much of a problem.
Still waiting on appeal decision. Anyone got contact details for the Revenue and Protection team? They only give out their written address.. (Just in case
)
Paul Kelly
Verified Rep - BR Fares
I see what Malderon means that it could be done using the current infrastructure with no changes at all. The development costs would only be for the TOC offering it to develop a website to offer the service and some back-end system that would generate the appropriate Ticket-on-demand codes every week and automatically "inject" them into the system so that the weekly tickets were available for collection by the user as appropriate. It couldn't be done using monthly tickets with the current infrastructure at present; would have to be with weeklies since these are allowed to be printed on normal orange ticket stock.
All interaction could all be done through a website. Gold record card could be sent out in the post. The customer could log into the website to do things such as changing their credit card, view when and where their weekly tickets had been picked up, generate codes for a few weeks in advance so they could pick a month's worth of weeklies up all at once should they so wish and so on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Actually, I thought of a potential problem - what price would be printed on these weekly seasons? Does anybody know, does the information sent from the ToD system to the machine printing the ticket include the price (in which case it could be anything), or does it have to be something already in the fares database. In which case it would get messy, as the TOC would have to introduce a new season ticket type into the fares database with a different, lower price.
However if adding a new season ticket type to the database they could also take the opportunity to have a different ticket name printed on the ticket, e.g. something like "WKLY COUPON STD" instead of "SEVEN DAY STD". This would then indicate to anybody checking the ticket that they should verify the gold record card as well as the photocard. So it mightn't be a bad thing at all.
All interaction could all be done through a website. Gold record card could be sent out in the post. The customer could log into the website to do things such as changing their credit card, view when and where their weekly tickets had been picked up, generate codes for a few weeks in advance so they could pick a month's worth of weeklies up all at once should they so wish and so on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Actually, I thought of a potential problem - what price would be printed on these weekly seasons? Does anybody know, does the information sent from the ToD system to the machine printing the ticket include the price (in which case it could be anything), or does it have to be something already in the fares database. In which case it would get messy, as the TOC would have to introduce a new season ticket type into the fares database with a different, lower price.
However if adding a new season ticket type to the database they could also take the opportunity to have a different ticket name printed on the ticket, e.g. something like "WKLY COUPON STD" instead of "SEVEN DAY STD". This would then indicate to anybody checking the ticket that they should verify the gold record card as well as the photocard. So it mightn't be a bad thing at all.
Paul Kelly
Verified Rep - BR Fares
If it was issued manually by a clerk they could put any price they wanted I'm sure. I just don't know if this could also be done from a ticket automatically issued from a ToD on machine. There might be measures in place to ensure that arbitrarily-priced tickets can't be issued; I'm not sure.
My ticket goes back in my ticket wallet the second I take it from the gate - so there's a 0% chance that this process would result in me losing the ticket!
Those with season tickets will almost certainly have a proper ticket wallet, not just putting it in their existing wallet/purse, back pocket, shirt pocket or whatever else people do with ordinary tickets - often making them unusable in gates within seconds!
Those with season tickets will almost certainly have a proper ticket wallet, not just putting it in their existing wallet/purse, back pocket, shirt pocket or whatever else people do with ordinary tickets - often making them unusable in gates within seconds!
EM2
Established Member
My 'main' wallet, that has my cards, money etc. in, lives in my manbag, which has a velcro flap, so I will hear if anyone tries to open it.
My ticket wallet lives in my shirt pocket or front trouser pocket, or in a zipped inside jacket pocket.
Never lost either of them.
Congratulations. However, given there are probably 1 million season ticket holders, season tickets will be lost.
In my 50 plus years I have never actually lost a season ticket but I have lost - glasses, credit cards, keys, jackets, hats, gloves, bags, money, library tickets, work passes, ordinary train tickets.....
EM2
Established Member
Well, I am now at the age of 42 and as an adult I have lost (outside of home, where all sorts of things go missing!) one set of house keys, one umbrella and one pair of gloves. I honestly can't think of anything else.
Maybe I'm just lucky!
Maybe I'm just lucky!
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