Goodbye Doreen

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The Gricer

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According to posts on the WRGen group the first class 442 Wessie has been withdrawn. The unit 2416 "Mum in a Million 1997 - Doreen Scanlon" has been taken off lease due to "non standard troublesome air conditioning and a shortage of spares for the rest of the fleet".


Frank
 
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Coxster

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2416

The reason for 2416's withdrawal is that it has non standard 'Liebherr' air conditioning which feeds straight off the 750v DC which the system is apparently not to keen on. There is also a shortage of spares for the rest of the fleet so this one could donate parts. Apparently both Angel Trains and SWT do not want to spend money on it.

It's last working was 1B73, 22:05 Waterloo - Poole.

Personal opinion about future

If Stagecoach do retain the franchise I'm guessing it will be just a matter of years before SWT choose to standardise the fleet with Desiros. That would leave them with just these, assuming the 421s don't last. This would give them a standardised fleet for the suburban operations, out-of-London operations and the diesel routes.

Inner Suburban: Class 455s
Outer Suburban: Class 450s
Express (Electric): Class 444s
Express (Diesel): Class 158s/159s
 

Techniquest

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Meh Alex.

And yes, I do hate 442s. I hate them with a passion. Worst. BR Traction. Ever. Mallards and 442s, two bits of traction/haulage I can't stand.

Give me a 444 over a 442 any day.
 

Guinness

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Liam said:
Mk3s body design? What can be wrong with that over plastic?
Just because it has a Mk3 Body Design doesn't mean it is the better than 'Plastic'. Depends on the interior of the train not the Body Design.
 

Coxster

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Chaz said:
Just because it has a Mk3 Body Design doesn't mean it is the better than 'Plastic'.
Well, Mk3 bodyshells have been proved good in past accidents. Not sure about Desiros as none have been involved in serious accidents.
 

Techniquest

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Lewisham2221 said:
It's a thing called 'personal opinion'. Contrary to popular belief, you don't have to share the exact same opinionss as everybody else to be a rail enthusiast....
*Bows down to Lewisham2221*

Thank you. Saved me ranting and raving about it...!

I hate, with a passion, 442s. They're uncomfortable, bumpy, rough riding, and God help you if you stand up when they're banging them together (literally).

MK3 bodyshells do NOT automatically promise something good. I prefer the new build stock to the 442s any day. There's not one good thing about them. Well, OK, I tell a lie. The promise of First Class compartments does tip the balance ever so slightly more towards them being a slight bit of good.

If I had the choice of a fast 442 or a semi-fast 444, it would be the latter, unless I didn't need haulage on it, then I'd do the 442 to the first stop, should I need haulage on that! If no haulage is required on either of them, then I'd be tempted to wait for the next run! But the 444 would certainly be preferred. As would a Voyager. As would a 450. As would a 158. As would...*Unrolls list of alternative preferred stock, reaches the floor*...You get the picture generally.
 

Dennis

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I've never stepped off a Wessie feeling anything less than fully satisfied with my journey - IMHO they are underrated; at peak times you can pack plenty of commuters in, there is a 'lounge' and buffet area to relax in, plenty of room for luggage, a good number of tables, nice big comfy seats and in the motor coach some EMU thrash (if there is such a thing!!), the remainder of the train being virtually silent.

Only drawback (apart from slow doors), is the second hand traction package and it was inevitable that withdrawals would start sooner rather than later.

Quite a 'stop-gap' solution BR came up with on the cheap; if only some of the newer units were as well thought out.
 

Techniquest

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Bollocks Alex.

Still, I'm not fussed if I'm the only one who hates the things! I've got the bandwagon rolling, and I'm at the head of it. You lot can jump on when you're ready!
 

Guinness

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TheSlash said:
And C you won't be able to afford anything other than the band wagon
Which Band is it this week? ;)

Anyway. Fair play for withdrawing it as long as it keeps the rest of the fleet alive an kicking better for 1 set to be withdrawn than 2 others because of lack of spare parts.
 

ChrisM

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Got to agree with WSXFan here the 442s are ****.
Sooner they are gone the better.
I have used them reguarly between Weymouth/Portsmouth and London for many years and hate them more then ever.
377s and 444s are so much better and feel better to ride in then the crap 442s.
Doors are to narrow and sloooooow.
Lounge area,so what it's normally full of ****head city types anyway.
Hopefully now SWTs can see that Desiros are the future and get rid of the 'plastic pigs'
 

AlexS

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At least the doors on the 442s work - Bombardier might want to look that one up for the 377s and Turbostars, I've personally physically dragged at least 10 sets of doors apart because the stupid sensors have gone for a tea break.
 

The Gricer

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It's a strange thing, this 'personal opinion' thing ain't it? Everyone has a different favourite train, favourite livery etc and of course, as they say, the world would be a boring place if we all liked the same things.

Having said that I can't see how anyone can prefer riding in the hard seats and limited space of a Dessie over a Wessie. Personally if I was waiting for a train and a 444 turned up and I knew there was an alternative 442 service following I would wait for the 442 every time.

A couple of people have mentioned the doors being slow. This maybe so but then you only use the damn doors twice during a journey so surely a few seconds either end shouldn't really be a major consideration.

Just my personal opinion of course. (and quite a few others it seems!)


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Techniquest

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ChrisM said:
Got to agree with WSXFan here the 442s are ****.
Sooner they are gone the better.
I have used them reguarly between Weymouth/Portsmouth and London for many years and hate them more then ever.
377s and 444s are so much better and feel better to ride in then the crap 442s.
Doors are to narrow and sloooooow.
Lounge area,so what it's normally full of ****head city types anyway.
Hopefully now SWTs can see that Desiros are the future and get rid of the 'plastic pigs'
My response to that? Quite simply, was this:

*Out loud* 'THANK YOU!' followed by several claps of semi-cupped hands above the head.

(Call that odd if you must, but to me it's a) justified and b) I've not long got back from my third Carlisle overnighter)

The doors thing annoys me endless. Yes you only use them to get on at one end of the trip and off at the other. But at the same time when you have multiple large bags to cart on, and they insist on opening slowly when the train is delayed for seemingly no reason, and you have connections to make...And yes, I have done this already once last year, with the bash from London to Bentley and back, involving a 377 to Clapham Junction, 442 to Woking and 450 to Bentley, 450 straight back then after. Carting big suitcases that are heavy through those doors, finding space for them...

That is one thing modern stock does much better, wider doors! MUCH better utilisation of time spent at stations! In many cases, you can essentially half the door space for those getting off and half for those getting on! Doesn't always work like that, but off-peak it works wonders. Try THAT on a 442.

I'm just glad bashing 442s is one of those little things I don't have to do very often at all. Maybe next year when Wimbledon is on I might do a haulage afternoon with them, we'll see. In the meantime, the Grand Axe is lining up...

:blackkni:
 

Tom C

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Having said that I can't see how anyone can prefer riding in the hard seats and limited space of a Dessie over a Wessie. Personally if I was waiting for a train and a 444 turned up and I knew there was an alternative 442 service following I would wait for the 442 every time.
A man after my own heart!!!

Mind you if I knew a CIG, CEP or even a VEP was due and I had the time I DID wait for them although I have to say that I used 442's quite a lot getting around to places like Wareham to get the late slam doors down that way.

Still only ridden one Desiro and that was Wandsworth Town to Clapham and that was more than enough ta! If I was at Richmond I used to wait for a JOP if a doodle came in or take a 455 when they had normal seats.

Also, 442's have EE546 motors and they are "hellfire" compared to the boring three phase unreliable lumps that Desiro's have.

Personal of course.
 

TheSlash

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Alot of people find the doors on a Desiro equally as slow, or slower, than the 442.
A 442 is one of the last pieces of common sense BR engineering left on the Network. I expect the technical people at SWT could tell you that quite a few 442's have unique modifications, but all in the name of progress.
Like 2409 has an electronic camshaft. It failed in the Portsmouth area one day, and after an initial on-site investigation by fitters, it was decided the best course of action would be to tow it into Fratton depot to clear the mainline and also for a more detailed investigation of the fault and how to fix it.
Even with Bournemouth depot technical specialists talking a fitter 'through it' on a mobile phone, we couldn't get the unit going again and eventually sent it back to Bournemouth for more detailed investigation.
This is all part of a learning curve. You'd never the class 66 if it wasn't for somebody putting they're neck on the line years ago in the name of AC motor research.
So rather than shouting you're mouth off about what you like and what you don't like just on a whim, why don't you take time to understand the history and development of something
The 458 is mocked as a failure, but when you looked at the technology of when it was designed and who it was designed by, taking into account they're previous attempts, or lack of. Alot of fitters find the 458 and 460 a good intermediate transition between the old slam door 400 series and the Desiros
So you're amateur spotting views will count for nothing with the real railway
 

ChrisM

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TheSlash said:
So rather than shouting you're mouth off about what you like and what you don't like just on a whim, why don't you take time to understand the history and development of something
I hope for your sake that wasn't aimed at me.
TheSlash said:
So you're amateur spotting views will count for nothing with the real railway
I have ridden on these things for years and hate them,based on hundreds if not thousends of long/short trips both on my own and with my wife and kids and find them unacceptable.
Seems funny that we all have opinions but when someone goes against the 'norm' they get slagged off.
I have friends and family who have driven and been guards on these units for years,some love um and some hate them we are all different but it seems we have to full into line with that the majority think.
Might go down to Fratton depot and tell the ones who were glad to see the back of the 442s that they were wrong and they should have found out about the 'history and development' before hating them.
 

Tom C

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The 458 is mocked as a failure, but when you looked at the technology of when it was designed and who it was designed by, taking into account they're previous attempts, or lack of. Alot of fitters find the 458 and 460 a good intermediate transition between the old slam door 400 series and the Desiros
Well they are hardly a success story.

Apart from the recent saga with the passenger information screens and in 2000 when all Juniper type units were taken out of traffic by Railtrack due to the runaway 334, the JOP's have been plagued with problems.

For what seemed like months there were only two JOP's in passenger traffic because Alstom were trying to fix the backlog of faults with the aircon, the computer system, the couplers and the corridor connections. Plus they can only work in multiple with other JOP's which makes them inflexable when you compare to other Southern Region stocks over the years.

Even when JOP's were in traffic fully on lines like Alton, they always seemed to get very short diagrams such as two round trips to Alton then ECS to Wimbledon Park and even when they were working on Readings they rarely strayed and 455's and slam door stock were regularly at work vice JOP's.

I thought that they were going to try to get JOP's and Desiro's to work in multiple but it seems as if South West Trains had given up the idea or maybe it was because Siemens and Alstom wouldn't/couldn't find a way to do it.

Certainly is a crime to let 6 year old units rot away, using them on a few Reading diagrams here and there to fill in whilst the last Desiro's are delivered especially seeing as South West Trains had started to grips with them and the mpc figures had finally started improving.

Makes me wonder what would have happened if the same attitude had been taken with Networkers as they have never really fulfilled the expectations that Chris Green and Network Southeast had when they were replacing the EPB's and the 465/9's have not helped seeing as they had to keep VEP's running for a lot longer to cover the poor reliabilty of the refurbished units and even today the diagrams keep getting switched to get Electrostars on the longer journeys leaving the 465/9's to work journeys where they seem to work more efficiently like Ashford and Faversham.

I think that Slash is right about 442's in that South West Trains appear to have an ongoing evaluation program with new parts and specs with the units and that can only be good for future development with other stocks.
 
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