Gordon Hill - loop restoration

Discussion in 'Infrastructure & Stations' started by adamedwards, 8 Jan 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. D365

    D365 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,036
    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    Aside from T&C infrastructure, what's stopping Moorgate from turning around 18tph+ again? Would it be the fact that the Class 717s will carry a lot more passengers that 2x313?
     
  2. mr_jrt

    mr_jrt Member

    Messages:
    721
    Joined:
    30 May 2011
    What was the reason the platforms tunnels at Moorgate couldn't be extended northwards to lengthen them? Even if it was only Moorgate and the surface stations that were enlarged, would it help matters if Essex Road and H&I were skipped by some longer services? It cannot be beyond the wit of man to achieve this - the Northern Line's platform tunnels were enlarged in the 1930s for longer trains, after all. Yes, these are bigger tunnels, but the principles are the same.
     
  3. D365

    D365 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,036
    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    Err, for starters there's the crossover chamber just north of the platforms.
     
  4. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

    Messages:
    4,960
    Joined:
    26 Jan 2009
    Location:
    Central Belt
    Real radical pie in the sky thinking, extend southwards to join with a Southern or Southeastern Route - Cross rail 3. (OK probably too radical and expensive)

    Welwyn Garden City - Dartford anyone?
     
  5. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,594
    Joined:
    19 Jun 2010
    Idea is at Gordon Hill to allow the 4tph in high peak to terminate without causing issues with the 8tph going north of there.

    Ignores the issue that Dartford is 10 cars where as the NCL is limited to 6 cars and would require a complete rebuild of the whole line (platform length plus passenger loading's) plus the fact that south of Moorgate is the Central line on the same level so the line cannot be extended south without moving the Moorgate station on the NCL further underground.

    This has been covered many times. Think it's actually a yearly debate!
     
    Last edited: 11 Jan 2017
  6. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

    Messages:
    4,960
    Joined:
    26 Jan 2009
    Location:
    Central Belt
    Actaully it wasn't a serious suggestion and wasn't supposed to be taken as such. But if you are into point scoring you have won that one :)

    However if you do want something serious - we don't know how many people will transfer to other services when the some great northern services transfer over to thameslink and crossrail opens.

    I personally will have more options which I don't know which one I will take until it opens and I try them out.

    1. Change at Finsbury Park as now.
    2. Stay on to Farringdon and walk. (which may be more expensive)
    3. Change at Farringdon to there underground or crossrail for Moorgate.

    Many others will have the same options which may dampen demand for some of the Moorgate services. Not much help for the Hertford loop granted, but that combined with the other changes may make the route less crowded in the short term.
     
    Last edited: 11 Jan 2017
  7. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,594
    Joined:
    19 Jun 2010
    Apologies if it seems like point scoring. And no I honestly didn't see you weren't being serious.

    As for passenger transferring figures, that's a very good question. One I cannot personally answer.

    Also many on the Moorgate line may now find Farringdon, City Thameslink or Blackfriars a better station to go to. I know of friends who walk from Liverpool Street to Blackfriars for commuting so it does happen. I think there will be a longer period from May 2018 until May 2019 where people try and figure out what is best for them. Disruption and using alternative routes will help this rocess too (yes there will always be disruptions before people ask, that cannot be 100% avoided).
     
  8. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

    Messages:
    4,960
    Joined:
    26 Jan 2009
    Location:
    Central Belt
    Yep. I will by trying out the various options myself. Personally I hope that I can use direct to Farringdon but if I need to pay a premium I will still head to Moorgate.

    For interest how (m)any platforms on the Hertford loop can take 8 car trains.

    At the moment if we have disruption on the WGC line Hertford gets ditched. Is that for the greater good or can't 8 coach services stop there anyway? Totally understand it is eating paths but I don't recall even when the London - Peterborough was routed that way (non-stop Hertford - Finsbury Park) it ever running as 8 coach.

    Just wondering why in the recast Hertford- Core isn't considered. Always assumed it was platform length.
     
  9. mr_jrt

    mr_jrt Member

    Messages:
    721
    Joined:
    30 May 2011
    Ok, but you could in theory build a new crossover cavern north of there, then extend the current platforms into an expanded current cavern...?

    (Don't worry all this is a hypothetical presuming this were financially justified)
     
  10. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

    Messages:
    4,960
    Joined:
    26 Jan 2009
    Location:
    Central Belt
    I suspect if a big project was going to look into this it will be cross-rail 2. Currently planned from New Southgate. It is many years away but it could do something to ease the crush. Even if it is just give people from the Southern end of the route a different option. However not sure if demand / practically / risk of disruption will ever provide a spur to Gordon hill as well as new Southgate. I suspect if the need was their someone would have suggested it already as an option.
     
  11. Ediswan

    Ediswan Member

    Messages:
    274
    Joined:
    15 Nov 2012
    Location:
    Stevenage
    I spotted that as well. It is possible with reversing of course, but at the cost of blocking the through lines while doing so. The current crossover to get down trains into platform 1 is just south of Holtwhites Hill, but nothing shown on that map series. Another mystery.
     
  12. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,594
    Joined:
    19 Jun 2010
    As I understand it there should be nothing stopping 387/700 calling there. 700019 has done some testing on the Hertford Loop.

    I think, and it is think, the class 717 SDO database will be shared with the 700 one so its one system thats used on all three lengths of trains.

    There is the increased tph + class 717 upgrade, then there is ATO on Moorgate route then Crossrail 2 upgrade to help deal with the loadings. How well it will do that is up for grabs.

    I'm very in favour of Crossrail 2 having an interchange with the Hertford Line.
     
  13. bramling

    bramling Established Member

    Messages:
    2,676
    Joined:
    5 Mar 2012
    Location:
    South East
    £££££.
     
  14. 30907

    30907 Established Member

    Messages:
    4,076
    Joined:
    30 Sep 2012
    Location:
    North Lancs Loop
    OS maps at that scale aren't totally infallible. Experienced that myself!

    I don't think the down loop would have been regularly used as a loop, but for overnight stabling. Pre dieselisation not many trains started or finished there.
     
  15. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,427
    Joined:
    3 May 2015
    The scissors crossover is pretty much immediately at the northern end of the platform tunnels. That would also have to be relocated northward too which would be some pretty serious and highly long-term dsruptive tunnel engineering (and risky with the Northern Line sitting immediately below the NCL tunnels). The capacity crunch on the Hertford Loop is nowhere near severe enough to justify the level of £££.

    And having 'long' trains skip H&I is a non-starter - it is *the* interchange from the GN inners to the West End (and, to a lesser extent, north end of Vic Line to parts of the City), via the Vic Line (and increasingly the ELL and NLL too), so is the peak hour critical load point from the north. Not to mention the platform congestion problems that would be caused by gaps in calls.
     
  16. D365

    D365 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,036
    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    :roll: See below:

     
  17. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

    Messages:
    4,960
    Joined:
    26 Jan 2009
    Location:
    Central Belt
    It is hard to tell the exit / entry a Highbury and Islington and where they go but it is where the train changes from sardine run to comfortable. Hardly surprising considering the extended number of interchanges on offer there. I have in the past used it to get to the Hammersmith area. A lot of others headed to those platforms as well.

    Not all Victoria line passengers that may use Finsbury Park once the interchange improves.
     
  18. SprinterMan

    SprinterMan Established Member

    Messages:
    2,318
    Joined:
    20 Sep 2010
    Location:
    Hertford
    We (the Hertford Loop) actually already have one Class 387 service a week already! :P

    On a Saturday morning, 2P99 0325 PBO - KGX via HFN is booked for a Class 387. It is a 365 M-F, but on a Saturday it's a 387.

    Adam :D
     
  19. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,594
    Joined:
    19 Jun 2010
    That a four or eight car?
     
  20. SprinterMan

    SprinterMan Established Member

    Messages:
    2,318
    Joined:
    20 Sep 2010
    Location:
    Hertford
    Four car. I'm not sure any stations on the Hertford loop can take 8 cars. Gordon Hill is out of space with 6. Hertford North might just be able to take 8 cars, but it would be pushing it.

    An interesting note about this train (and it's reverse working, 2F99 0105 KGX - RYS via HFN) is that they are the only regularly timetabled trains to pass through Watton-At-Stone without calling there. Class 365s are unable to call at Crews Hill and Bayford due to incompatibility with the DOO monitors used there, but they can call at Watton. Although in these cases, they don't :P

    Adam :D
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page