Gospel Oak to Barking Line (GOBLIN) electrification

[plcd1]

The test / refamiliarisation trains using cl172s are now running on the GOBLIN.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The test / refamiliarisation trains using cl172s are now running on the GOBLIN.

I assume sooner or later the test coach(es) from Derby top and tailed with 37s or similar will run soon too?

 

[Class 170101]

Do we know if power hungry trains will be sent here to test the line?

eg Class 390s or Class 92s?

 

[Chris M]

Given the freight workings on the line a 92 is not impossible, but I've not seen anything to suggest that a 390 needs to be used.

 

[Domh245]

Do we know if power hungry trains will be sent here to test the line?

As far as I'm aware, power hungry trains aren't necessary for testing new OLE installations, instead the main purpose behind testing is to ensure that the return currents don't cause problems with existing infrastructure. There haven't been any such stress testing trains on the GWML, only the units that will be actually using the overheads have been tested, and similarly the 390s on the NW schemes were because they would be used in anger along it. Would be happy to be corrected by anyone who actually knows though, @GazK ?

 

[Jonny]

As far as I'm aware, power hungry trains aren't necessary for testing new OLE installations, instead the main purpose behind testing is to ensure that the return currents don't cause problems with existing infrastructure. There haven't been any such stress testing trains on the GWML, only the units that will be actually using the overheads have been tested, and similarly the 390s on the NW schemes were because they would be used in anger along it. Would be happy to be corrected by anyone who actually knows though, @GazK ?

If a Class 92 was likely to turn up, would it not be better to test it with one, though?

If it was a piece of software it would be tested to an equivalent extent as the bare minimum.

 

[Domh245]

If a Class 92 was likely to turn up, would it not be better to test it with one, though?

If it was a piece of software it would be tested to an equivalent extent as the bare minimum.

It isn't an either/or - all of the different stocks (or at least traction packages) would have to be tested, as they'll all have different return currents which could interfere in different ways. Case in point on the Great Western, the class 387s ran fine throughout the new installation, the 800s caused issues with signalling equipment in two separate locations.

I would expect that if GBRf wanted to run class 92s along the GOBLIN, they would have to be tested and signed off first. If GBRf (or DBC for that matter) don't want to run any Class 92s along the route, then I can't imagine that they'll bother providing a locomotive and/or money to get the testing and paperwork done.

 

[D365]

EMC (electro-magnetic compatibility) testing is the name of the game. A critical step in gaining clearance for any type of electric traction.

 

[Domh245]

I assume sooner or later the test coach(es) from Derby top and tailed with 37s or similar will run soon too?

They've sent budget MENTOR in place of the real thing it seems!

AIUI though, MENTOR is used primarily to measure things like the uplift of the OLE, voltage, and other such things. It may not be needed, as it seems that the test train that ran a few nights ago was looking at all manner of parameters, based on this image (from the same twitter profile as the above tweet)

 

[76020]

Any updates? Did this happen please?

We have electric test trains now running, great news, I went past Harringay on the East Coast Main Line last weekend and the curve to the GOBLIN line is now wired.

 

[Maurice3000]

What are the plans for the 'old' stock once electrification is complete? They are only a couple of years old and I can imagine there is quite a demand across the country for modern diesel stock to be cascaded.

 

[TheDavibob]

What are the plans for the 'old' stock once electrification is complete? They are only a couple of years old and I can imagine there is quite a demand across the country for modern diesel stock to be cascaded.

Pretty sure the plan is for them to bolster the WMR fleet.

 

[Domh245]

What are the plans for the 'old' stock once electrification is complete? They are only a couple of years old and I can imagine there is quite a demand across the country for modern diesel stock to be cascaded.

They will be going to West Midlands Railway

 

[nlogax]

They've sent budget MENTOR in place of the real thing it seems!

That's..an intriguing looking piece of kit!

If the 378 with DEWEsoft s/w rig was able to duplicate the required testing MENTOR would usually perform (judging by the other photo anyway), are MENTOR's days coming to an end as a useful Network Rail asset?

 

[Domh245]

That's..an intriguing looking piece of kit!

If the 378 with DEWEsoft s/w rig was able to duplicate the required testing MENTOR would usually perform (judging by the other photo anyway), are MENTOR's days coming to an end as a useful Network Rail asset?

It's an interesting scenario. AFAIK all new EMUs are fitted with means of monitoring the overhead lines, cameras that monitor the pantograph when in contact with the line, On-Train-Metering systems, etc. The DEWEsoft rig on that 378 is obviously temporary and no doubt has more sensors that it normally might, but for routine checking and testing that may have previously been covered by MENTOR, I suspect that just running service trains with overhead monitoring systems is a far cheaper and easier way of doing it. However, there are still plenty of EMUs running around without such systems, so there is probably still life in it yet

 

[nlogax]

Thanks @Domh245. Yes, good point..while it's easier to get MENTOR to those areas than borrowing a newer unit for such a task then there's I guess there's still life in the old dog yet

 

[snowball]

A road-rail vehicle equipped with a pantograph has also been seen recently between Preston and Blackpool:

https://twitter.com/TheGNRP/status/949211744349671425

 

[plcd1]

What are the plans for the 'old' stock once electrification is complete? They are only a couple of years old and I can imagine there is quite a demand across the country for modern diesel stock to be cascaded.

More like 8 years old this year! Still fairly young and in decent cosmetic shape, can't comment about under the skin. I rather like them even if they are overwhelmed in the peaks. Far better than the 150s.

 

[hwl]

What are the plans for the 'old' stock once electrification is complete? They are only a couple of years old and I can imagine there is quite a demand across the country for modern diesel stock to be cascaded.

Going to West Midlands

 

[Taunton]

More like 8 years old this year! Still fairly young and in decent cosmetic shape, can't comment about under the skin. I rather like them even if they are overwhelmed in the peaks. Far better than the 150s.

I think the established users don't realise they are also far better than the new sideways-seats-only trains that will replace them.

Does a 2-car diesel have more seats than a 4-car new emu will have? I didn't say crush load passengers, I said seats.

they'll all have different return currents which could interfere in different ways.

An extraordinary example was when the North London Line joint 630v dc and 25Kv was installed in the 1980s, it actually had an impact at Highbury & Islington on the Victoria Line signalling 20m below ground.

 

[Chris M]

I think the established users don't realise they are also far better than the new sideways-seats-only trains that will replace them.

Does a 2-car diesel have more seats than a 4-car new emu will have? I didn't say crush load passengers, I said seats.

Have you travelled on the Goblin? The transverse seats with a narrow aisle are not suitable for the route as the trains are crush loaded, and seats are difficult to access and difficult to alight from.

As for the number of seats, a 172/0 is reported on Wikipedia to have 120 seats (four more than the 2-car 172/2 trains used in the West Midlands). I haven't been able to find the number of seats the 710s on the Goblin will have, but Haringey Council quote TfL as saying the 710s used on the West Anglia route will have 195 seats per four car train. These will have mixed longitudinal and transverse seating like the S8s on the Metropolitan line. Doing a bit of maths:
S8: 306 seats
7/8ths of 306 is 267.75, so say 267. (assuming the seats are evenly distributed through the train)
S7: 256 seats
So the S7 has approximately 96% the number of seats that it would have in mixed configuration.
96% of 195 is 187.2.
187 seats is grater than 120 seats, so it seems very likely that they will have more seats.

 

[matthewmacleod]

I think the established users don't realise they are also far better than the new sideways-seats-only trains that will replace them.

Does a 2-car diesel have more seats than a 4-car new emu will have? I didn't say crush load passengers, I said seats.

The entire line is 35 minutes end-to-end, and most people don't travel all the way. I think passengers will be overjoyed that they can now board the train at all, number of seats be damned.

 

[goblinuser]

Have you travelled on the Goblin? The transverse seats with a narrow aisle are not suitable for the route as the trains are crush loaded, and seats are difficult to access and difficult to alight from.

As for the number of seats, a 172/0 is reported on Wikipedia to have 120 seats (four more than the 2-car 172/2 trains used in the West Midlands). I haven't been able to find the number of seats the 710s on the Goblin will have, but Haringey Council quote TfL as saying the 710s used on the West Anglia route will have 195 seats per four car train. These will have mixed longitudinal and transverse seating like the S8s on the Metropolitan line. Doing a bit of maths:
S8: 306 seats
7/8ths of 306 is 267.75, so say 267. (assuming the seats are evenly distributed through the train)
S7: 256 seats
So the S7 has approximately 96% the number of seats that it would have in mixed configuration.
96% of 195 is 187.2.
187 seats is grater than 120 seats, so it seems very likely that they will have more seats.

I use the GOBLIN off peak and find the normal front facing seats very comfortable. Sideways longitudinal seating is horrid and I am quite sad that normal seats are being removed altogether. The new trains will be 4 cars rather than 2, so there really should be room for a few sections of normal seats for those who want to look out of the window and not have to stare awkwardly at the person opposite and the various ads like on the tube.

 

[plcd1]

The entire line is 35 minutes end-to-end, and most people don't travel all the way. I think passengers will be overjoyed that they can now board the train at all, number of seats be damned.

I think that will certainly be the case in the rush hours. Simply being able to get on the train will be a great relief at places like Blackhorse Road or the eastern stns in the AM peak. As you say the relatively short trip times shouldn't be a great issue with a different seating layout.

 

[Mikey C]

I use the GOBLIN off peak and find the normal front facing seats very comfortable. Sideways longitudinal seating is horrid and I am quite sad that normal seats are being removed altogether. The new trains will be 4 cars rather than 2, so there really should be room for a few sections of normal seats for those who want to look out of the window and not have to stare awkwardly at the person opposite and the various ads like on the tube.

Yes, I understand why they've done it, but I hate the sideways seats on the 378s as I end up with a cricked neck from looking sideways to enjoy the view! And with the relatively shallow windows and door pocket intrusions, it's not as if you can see anything when standing either (unless you're blocking the doors)

 

[Taunton]

What would be wrong with transverse seats but in a 4 car unit, double the current length.

Have you travelled on the Goblin?

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...n-electrification.111042/page-12#post-2946023

 

[Chris M]

So you've used it once on a weekday morning after the peak, when you described it as "surprisingly well filled"?
If you use just a very small amount of imagination you should be able to imagine what it is like in the peaks. People get left behind at times. Very few people travel end-to-end on the line, and the service is relatively infrequent. What matters is the number of people who can be transported in the quickest time, not the handful of enthusiasts who very occasionally want an easier view of inner north and east London.

The new trains are going to be 4 car units, and they will have seating appropriate to their role as short-distance inner-city and inner-suburban people movers. Transverse seating would significantly reduce the capacity and extend dwell times.

 

[rebmcr]

there really should be room for a few sections of normal seats

They would be over-subscribed in that case.

 

[goblinuser]

So you've used it once on a weekday morning after the peak, when you described it as "surprisingly well filled"?
If you use just a very small amount of imagination you should be able to imagine what it is like in the peaks. People get left behind at times. Very few people travel end-to-end on the line, and the service is relatively infrequent. What matters is the number of people who can be transported in the quickest time, not the handful of enthusiasts who very occasionally want an easier view of inner north and east London.

The new trains are going to be 4 car units, and they will have seating appropriate to their role as short-distance inner-city and inner-suburban people movers. Transverse seating would significantly reduce the capacity and extend dwell times.

Wanting a level of comfort for a journey does not make you an 'enthusiast'. Especially at a time where car use in London is more and more frowned upon.
The line has managed with 2 car class 101s, 150s, and now 172s. Going from 2 to 4 coaches is already doubling capacity so there is room for some rows of normal front facing seats.
The line serves a considerable amount of leisure spaces. Gospel Oak for Hampstead Heath, Green Lanes for Finsbury Park, Crouch Hill for Parkland Walk, South Tottenham and Blackhorse Rd for Lea Valley Park, Wanstead for Wanstead flats, and more that the areas of greater London it passes through has to offer. The line is not only used by people going to work in the peak.

 

[Taunton]

Wanting a level of comfort for a journey does not make you an 'enthusiast'. Especially at a time where car use in London is more and more frowned upon.

You are correct, and this is where the public transport industry has got it fundamentally wrong in their approach to their customers. Cars have got notably better over the years, in terms of comfort, useful features, and so on. Public transport has very much gone in the opposite direction. You only have to read this thread and others here to see this; an attitude that all that matters is packing people in, at a theoretical density never actually achieved. That's not what people want. And so when they have a choice they will go for what they do want.