Gospel Oak to Harringay Junction electrification as part of Thameslink

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PhilipW

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Now that a contract has just been awarded to build a new depot at Hornsey for the Thameslink fleet, am I correct in assuming that the Gospel Oak to Harringay Junction section of the Gospel Oak-Barking line is to be electrified as well. Without such electrification, it will be very difficult for the EMUs to reach Hornsey from the Thameslink line.

I did read some while back that this electrification was planned, but have not heard anything recently so am unsure about its status. Does anyone have any information ?
 
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swt_passenger

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Now that a contract has just been awarded to build a new depot at Hornsey for the Thameslink fleet, am I correct in assuming that the Gospel Oak to Harringay Junction section of the Gospel Oak-Barking line is to be electrified as well. Without it, it will be very difficult for the EMUs to reach Hornsey from the Thameslink line.
No it won't be difficult at all. They'll be able to run via the Canal tunnels, which will be open by the time the depot is needed.
 

Class377/5

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Now that a contract has just been awarded to build a new depot at Hornsey for the Thameslink fleet, am I correct in assuming that the Gospel Oak to Harringay Junction section of the Gospel Oak-Barking line is to be electrified as well. Without such electrification, it will be very difficult for the EMUs to reach Hornsey from the Thameslink line.

I did read some while back that this electrification was planned, but have not heard anything recently so am unsure about its status. Does anyone have any information ?
There is no plans for this. Currently the do a massive figure of eight via NLL and WLL lines under freight drivers control.

What you may not realise is by the time the new rolling stock starts testing, the new link from St Pancras to Finsbury Park it's planned to be in operation for ECS moves only.
 

swt_passenger

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There is no plans for this. Currently the do a massive figure of eight via NLL and WLL lines under freight drivers control.

What you may not realise is by the time the new rolling stock starts testing, the new link from St Pancras to Finsbury Park it's planned to be in operation for ECS moves only.
That's been my understanding for a year or so now. Perhaps the plan to electrify part of the Goblin was an early fall back proposal when they weren't sure if the Canal Tunnels would be ready in time.

Also, as we've discussed before, the relative sizes of Hornsey and Three Bridges depots have changed since the original plans were applied for, the implication being that there'll be slightly less need for direct transfers of units from the 'Midland branch' of Thameslink to Hornsey.

Also, for PhilipW, there will still be plenty of normal overnight stabling and minor maintenance at other points on the overall Thameslink network - there won't necessarily be a constant flow of units that would benefit from the additional electrified link
 
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cle

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It would also allow trains from West Hampstead and beyond to access the Hornsey depot directly.

Makes sense, and surely adds to GOBLIN overall wiring business case.
 

swt_passenger

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It would also allow trains from West Hampstead and beyond to access the Hornsey depot directly.
With respect, we know exactly what move it would allow for, but the question is whether it is actually needed, or just nice to have.

If the latter, it won't have the same justification will it?
 

cle

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Firstly, not everyone might not know that and it hadn't been specifically mentioned - not sure who you are to censor the thread, so wind them in.

Secondly: "there won't necessarily be a constant flow of units that would benefit from the additional electrified link"

from your good self - "won't necessarily" doesn't mean that there might not be a future benefit from this and allowing the transfer of units between those lines and depots - especially if there is a completely timetable change (possible with MML 125) and timings change at the extremeties of the day, requiring more ECS movements.
 

swt_passenger

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Firstly, not everyone might not know that and it hadn't been specifically mentioned - not sure who you are to censor the thread, so wind them in.
My apologies for the tone of my post - but I thought the purpose was clear enough from the thread title and the first post.
 

cle

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No worries - I was a little tetchy...

I thought the OP was mainly referring to St Pancras Thameslink - Kentish Town - Hornsey rather than West Hampstead - Upper Holloway - Hornsey, and so thought it was worth mentioning there was another direction of flow possible by this wiring too.
 

Class377/5

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That's been my understanding for a year or so now. Perhaps the plan to electrify part of the Goblin was an early fall back proposal when they weren't sure if the Canal Tunnels would be ready in time.

Also, as we've discussed before, the relative sizes of Hornsey and Three Bridges depots have changed since the original plans were applied for, the implication being that there'll be slightly less need for direct transfers of units from the 'Midland branch' of Thameslink to Hornsey.

Also, for PhilipW, there will still be plenty of normal overnight stabling and minor maintenance at other points on the overall Thameslink network - there won't necessarily be a constant flow of units that would benefit from the additional electrified link
You may be correct that GOBLIN was an early fall back plan prior to the rebuilding of St Pancras. However once they had dug the tunnels I'm sure the idea of doing it was abandoned for Thameslink. I'm sure it would have been a cheap fix compared to building the tunnels and I'm sure TfL would have assisted in the whole process. I wonder the issue of what to do with the freight during wiring helped to sink this idea of a direct West Hampstead - Crouch Hill - Hornsey route?

Yes, changes to the depot and our discussion has rendered my earlier thoughts on the subject of the NXEMU stabling requirements bit of the mark.
 

PhilipW

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Thanks everyone for all the information.

Although I did say Gospel Oak in the title, I suppose I did really mean the nearby Carlton Road Junction which would give direct access to Hornsey via GOBLIN from West Hampstead and points north on the MML.

I read about this electrification plan a couple of years back and it appeared a runner then but, as you all have said, things have moved on from then, not least the continuing slippage as to the date the new (and still unordered) Thameslink stock will arrive and their need to access the Hornsey depot. I also understand that using the Canal Tunnels for public services is one of the last deliverables of the Thameslink project, so I guess that will be 2016+. Presumably then there will be a need for the tunnels to be fitted out earlier so that they can be used for ECS movements.

Even with the tunnels in use, it could have been beneficial if the western half of GOBLIN had been electrified as I presume that a number of trains that complete their daily schedule at St Albans, Luton or Bedford may have to return to depot at Hornsey overnight. Without the direct link they will have to head south and then reverse to reach Hornsey. I understand the nearest turning point would be City Thameslink (though someone may wish to correct me on that) - a movement thay may be possible late evening or night but impossible during the day due to the frequency of service.
 

ntg

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It had thought such trains would continue using the current depots and the new one at Hornsey only served to house the additional trains needed for the new ECML services.
 

PhilipW

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It had thought such trains would continue using the current depots and the new one at Hornsey only served to house the additional trains needed for the new ECML services.
I am always happy to be corrected but my understanding was that the whole new Thamslink fleet was to maintained at Hornsey and Three Bridges. These were to be the only two maintenence depots.

True that units are to be stabled overnight elsewhere, Bedford for example where additional sidings have recently been provided, but any maintenence facilities there are very limited.
 

swt_passenger

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I am always happy to be corrected but my understanding was that the whole new Thameslink fleet was to maintained at Hornsey and Three Bridges. These were to be the only two maintenence depots.

True that units are to be stabled overnight elsewhere, Bedford for example where additional sidings have recently been provided, but any maintenence facilities there are very limited.
You have to look at the proportion of units needing depot maintenance at any instant, rather than stabling.

As an analogy, SWT's entire Desiro fleet of 172 units, is allocated to and 'maintained' at Northam (Southampton) depot, which has only 4 covered maintenance roads, and IIRC three stabling sidings. Apparently, individual units only visit 'the depot' only every few weeks, all other running maintenance and exams is done at various stabling locations.

Thameslink's Hornsey and Three Bridges depots similarly include both stabling and maintenance as you'd expect, but the total of maintenance roads across the two depots is still only single figures, without looking up the planning drawings let's say 3 at Hornsey and 5 at Three Bridges.

So trips for maintenance at Hornsey may not be as regular as you'd anticipate for any particular unit.
 

Class377/5

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Thanks everyone for all the information.

Although I did say Gospel Oak in the title, I suppose I did really mean the nearby Carlton Road Junction which would give direct access to Hornsey via GOBLIN from West Hampstead and points north on the MML.

I read about this electrification plan a couple of years back and it appeared a runner then but, as you all have said, things have moved on from then, not least the continuing slippage as to the date the new (and still unordered) Thameslink stock will arrive and their need to access the Hornsey depot. I also understand that using the Canal Tunnels for public services is one of the last deliverables of the Thameslink project, so I guess that will be 2016+. Presumably then there will be a need for the tunnels to be fitted out earlier so that they can be used for ECS movements.

Even with the tunnels in use, it could have been beneficial if the western half of GOBLIN had been electrified as I presume that a number of trains that complete their daily schedule at St Albans, Luton or Bedford may have to return to depot at Hornsey overnight. Without the direct link they will have to head south and then reverse to reach Hornsey. I understand the nearest turning point would be City Thameslink (though someone may wish to correct me on that) - a movement thay may be possible late evening or night but impossible during the day due to the frequency of service.
The use of passenger services via the Canal Tunnels is due in Dec 2018 when the completed London Bridge. The junctions at St Pancras has already been installed with work in the tunnels underway.

The nearest turning point is actually around St Pancras. There is a crossover to the north of the station allowing the changeover to be there. Note that the new new units need to access Hornsey as much at first as the idea is to replace all the Thameslink fleet first so they will be based at Three Bridges depot (tho stabled everywhere else). There will be limited need for units to be on the GN expect testing on the Hertford Loop at night.

It had thought such trains would continue using the current depots and the new one at Hornsey only served to house the additional trains needed for the new ECML services.
I am always happy to be corrected but my understanding was that the whole new Thamslink fleet was to maintained at Hornsey and Three Bridges. These were to be the only two maintenence depots.

True that units are to be stabled overnight elsewhere, Bedford for example where additional sidings have recently been provided, but any maintenence facilities there are very limited.
You have to look at the proportion of units needing depot maintenance at any instant, rather than stabling.

As an analogy, SWT's entire Desiro fleet of 172 units, is allocated to and 'maintained' at Northam (Southampton) depot, which has only 4 covered maintenance roads, and IIRC three stabling sidings. Apparently, individual units only visit 'the depot' only every few weeks, all other running maintenance and exams is done at various stabling locations.

Thameslink's Hornsey and Three Bridges depots similarly include both stabling and maintenance as you'd expect, but the total of maintenance roads across the two depots is still only single figures, without looking up the planning drawings let's say 3 at Hornsey and 5 at Three Bridges.

So trips for maintenance at Hornsey may not be as regular as you'd anticipate for any particular unit.
Very true, as SWT says, units may not see Hornsey for long periods. Hell it could be possible a unit never sees major works there and is seem to by Three Bridges (very unlikely but not impossible).
 
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