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Got penalty fare notice because of using a screenshot of the ticket

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Palita

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Hi
I got the penalty fare notice because I travelled using screenshot of the ticket that my boyfriend bought me.

And I didn’t appeal because I lost the receipt of the penalty notice. Now I just came back to the apartment that I left due to covid19 and found the letter told me to pay the fine (that the deadline was also expired) with the PF number so I just did the appeal but in the website stages that they cannot do anything with the appeal outside the deadline. What should I do next? Or just pay the penalty?
 
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Brissle Girl

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Your description is a little confusing , but if you are still able to pay the fine then I would do so. You were clearly travelling without a valid ticket, so the PF was justified, and the fact that you lost the PF notice would not be regarded as a valid reason why you didn’t pay on time.

So I’d chalk this one up to experience and try and get it resolved ASAP, to avoid any escalation and potential increased costs.
 

hkstudent

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Your description is a little confusing , but if you are still able to pay the fine then I would do so. You were clearly travelling without a valid ticket, so the PF was justified, and the fact that you lost the PF notice would not be regarded as a valid reason why you didn’t pay on time.

So I’d chalk this one up to experience and try and get it resolved ASAP, to avoid any escalation and potential increased costs.
Not really, if the ticket was an e-ticket, the screenshot would be valid, as long as the barcode of the ticket is visible.
But, as you didn't appeal within the time period (which you should have done so, even if you have lost the receipt, you can still enquire the reference number from the train company hotline).
But as said, pay it up now, to avoid escalation in cost. Unless you want to risk it though not paying and result in prosecution for fare-dodging by railway by-law (and you can then argue the case in court).
 
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gray1404

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If the screen shot was valid though - which I am not so sure if a screen shot is tbh - then it makes the PF issued invalid and the PF doesn't become valid just because the passenger doesn't appeal. I think the best thing to do here would be to establish if the screen shot that was shown was valid. Do you still have a copy of it? If so, please post. Then once we have established an answer to that then we can see if it is worth responding to the letter received (and contacting the train company that issued the PF) to simply state that a valid ticket was held and as such, nothing is owed to them.
 
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Brissle Girl

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So looking at GWR mobile e-tickets as an example, it says you can’t make a copy of it for security reasons. Given a screenshot is a copy, and can be sent to another person, is that the issue? (Though how that is any different to printed out e-tickets I don’t know.)

Whether that is true for other TOCs I don’t know, but you would hope there is a consistent approach.
 

najaB

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if the screen shot was valid though - which I am not so sure if a screen shot is tbh - then it makes the PF issued invalid and the PF doesn't become valid just because the passenger doesn't appeal.
I'm not so sure that the OP is free and clear...

The moment a Penalty Fare is issued it becomes the fare that is due. One can appeal it if you believe that it has been incorrectly issued (that is, after all, the point of the appeals procedure) but it's still the fare that is due.

The issue now isn't that the PF shouldn't have been issued but rather that it was neither paid nor appealed.
 

SteveM70

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Screenshots aren't valid even for e-Tickets, why would you screen shot the ticket when you can just send the full ticket anyway.

Does an e-ticket rely on an internet connection or does activating it store it locally on the mobile device? If it’s the latter I can’t see any benefit from a screenshot, but if it’s the former it would guarantee having a ticket to display regardless of any connectivity issues
 

221129

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Does an e-ticket rely on an internet connection or does activating it store it locally on the mobile device? If it’s the latter I can’t see any benefit from a screenshot, but if it’s the former it would guarantee having a ticket to display regardless of any connectivity issues
Stored locally on the device.
 

Bletchleyite

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Screenshots aren't valid even for e-Tickets, why would you screen shot the ticket when you can just send the full ticket anyway.

Because pulling up a screenshot is easier than faffing with an app?

Of course in that case you'd have the original too, if the guard/RPI insisted, it'd just take longer to pull it up. But surely the point of e-tickets is that you can present the barcode in any form.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm not so sure that the OP is free and clear...

The moment a Penalty Fare is issued it becomes the fare that is due. One can appeal it if you believe that it has been incorrectly issued (that is, after all, the point of the appeals procedure) but it's still the fare that is due.

The issue now isn't that the PF shouldn't have been issued but rather that it was neither paid nor appealed.

Agreed. Presumably now the PF has effectively been withdrawn and the matter will proceed with the TOC's prosecutions team?
 

Bletchleyite

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So looking at GWR mobile e-tickets as an example, it says you can’t make a copy of it for security reasons. Given a screenshot is a copy, and can be sent to another person, is that the issue? (Though how that is any different to printed out e-tickets I don’t know.)

Whether that is true for other TOCs I don’t know, but you would hope there is a consistent approach.

No, there's not. GWR have a bizarre setup for e-tickets in which you don't get the PDF.

The idea of e-tickets is you can have as many copies as you want, as scanning the barcode keeps track of usage.
 

hkstudent

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So looking at GWR mobile e-tickets as an example, it says you can’t make a copy of it for security reasons. Given a screenshot is a copy, and can be sent to another person, is that the issue? (Though how that is any different to printed out e-tickets I don’t know.)

Whether that is true for other TOCs I don’t know, but you would hope there is a consistent approach.
Are you sure the mobile e-tickets is a e-ticket but not a m-ticket? If the ticket is app-based, that's a m-ticket.
 

Bletchleyite

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Are you sure the mobile e-tickets is a e-ticket but not a m-ticket? If the ticket is app-based, that's a m-ticket.

For GWR it's a weird hybrid. The easiest way to find out about it, if you've got a quid or so to spare, is to download it and purchase a child single for a short journey you don't intend to make.
 

Wallsendmag

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Does an e-ticket rely on an internet connection or does activating it store it locally on the mobile device? If it’s the latter I can’t see any benefit from a screenshot, but if it’s the former it would guarantee having a ticket to display regardless of any connectivity issues
its the latter
 

gray1404

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If a penalty fare is withdrawn following non payment of it though and then TOC then looks taking the matter to Court, that has to be based on a valid ticket not being held/presented on the original date of travel - not for mere non payment of the penalty fare alone.
 

najaB

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If a penalty fare is withdrawn following non payment of it though and then TOC then looks taking the matter to Court, that has to be based on a valid ticket not being held/presented on the original date of travel - not for mere non payment of the penalty fare alone.
It could be argued that failure to challenge a Penalty Fare is tacit acceptance that it is valid.
 

Realfish

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Screenshots aren't valid even for e-Tickets, why would you screen shot the ticket when you can just send the full ticket anyway.

The OP needs to come back and confirm which type of ticket she was using, but I'll throw this into the pot, from the Rail Delivery Group';

''...the Rail Delivery Group (RDG), which is responsible for ticketing across the UK network, initially told Money that passengers can use screenshots of QR barcodes, as used daily by people taking flights. They have the advantage of being easily accessed even if the phone handset has no signal or has run out of data.

''The RDG later confirmed that screenshots of tickets may be accepted as valid tickets if the barcode can be validated by an inspector using a scanner, but it said this is not recommended as it increases the chances of the ticket becoming obscured and unreadable.''


This was from this story, last year as reported by the Guardian. Although the circumstances and TOC are different, the RDG's pronouncement on the screenshot issue is quite definitive. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2...d-with-court-for-using-screenshot-of-e-ticket
 

Wallsendmag

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The OP needs to come back and confirm which type of ticket she was using, but I'll throw this into the pot, from the Rail Delivery Group';

''...the Rail Delivery Group (RDG), which is responsible for ticketing across the UK network, initially told Money that passengers can use screenshots of QR barcodes, as used daily by people taking flights. They have the advantage of being easily accessed even if the phone handset has no signal or has run out of data.

''The RDG later confirmed that screenshots of tickets may be accepted as valid tickets if the barcode can be validated by an inspector using a scanner, but it said this is not recommended as it increases the chances of the ticket becoming obscured and unreadable.''


This was from this story, last year as reported by the Guardian. Although the circumstances and TOC are different, the RDG's pronouncement on the screenshot issue is quite definitive. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2...d-with-court-for-using-screenshot-of-e-ticket
Where's the facepalm smilie when you need it?
 
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