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Govenment Briefing 23rd May - Reversing Beeching Cuts

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route:oxford

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Can someone remind me. Will there be a Barnett wotsit for Scotland from this (ideally ring fenced for something useful like Peterhead, St Andrews or Leven)?
 
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Bletchleyite

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Light rail between West Cowes and Newport, using the old alignment through the countryside with street running at each end? It might be viable if it could connect to the Redjet service, but that looks pretty tricky.

You can run steam trains on a tramway! :)

 

GRALISTAIR

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I still think Clitheroe – Hellifield is an economic absurdity which will presumably get binned before it gets much further, although still better than the Skipton - Colne nonsense.
I still have dreams of a regular scheduled circular timetabled route. Clockwise and anti-clockwise. Preston to Blackburn to Clitheroe to Hellifield then SandC and Carlisle and Preston.
 

JonathanH

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I wonder if there is some sneaky way of doing that without costing anything - the line is already there and passed for passenger use (for summer DalesRail and winter Lancashire Ramblers, aka "fresh air express" when I used it) - I wonder if there's enough slack in the diagrams for the Clitheroes to go there and back for little more than the cost of the diesel?

No, it is always going to need another diagram - the Sunday train takes 23 minutes to get from Clitheroe to Hellifield. Clitheroe is a pretty comfortable 3 hour cycle from Manchester Victoria.
 

Bald Rick

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The usual negativity from Baldrick. Which of the 10 do you agree with and support then? Fawley and Leicester - Burton seem the most viable and realistic.

Firstly, it’s Bald Rick, not Baldrick. There’s quite a difference; notably that I’m hopeless at poetry.

Secondly, one person’s negativity is another’s realism. I apologise if my post appeared to be the former.

To answer the question about the ten:

Meir and Devizes look good, particularly the latter.

Barrow Hill, Ivanhoe and Fawley (I had to look up ‘Waterside’) all suffer from the issue of capacity at their nearby main destinations. Sheffield is already at capacity with committed service proposals. Leicester isn’t far off, and there is the not insignificant issue of how you get trains off the branch to get to Leicester in the first place (a 10mph curve costing scores of millions is the best hope). Fawley is probably the easiest of the three, but there are capacity issues at Southampton, and extending existing services probably means third rail.

Bury - Rochdale will be a good test of how you persuade a heritage railway to take on a commercial service, and how you persuade the ORR to accept the safety case. I can see that working, but id be surprised if it was anything more than a trundle.

Wellington / Cullompton: clearly deserving cases, but what willl stop there? If new services, where to, given that Bristol is pretty full post Metro West? If not new services, which of the London / Xc services do you add 7-8 minutes to, how, and what is the cost to those already on the trains?

Clitheroe - Hellfiield. Easy to do. I can’t see there being much demand though.

IoW. By far the most accessible, most useful, most environmentally friendly, and most cost effective solution for the Isle would be a fleet of electric buses, with appropriate bus priority measures. Not a popular opinion, of course.

Abbey Line. Declaring an interest as I use it. I don’t know the proposal, but a conventional heavy rail loop will be a lot of cash, due to the signalling arrangements, and the need for an extra train. The best thing for this line would be a bespoke pair of units with tram style performance, operating under tram style control arrangements, with a tram style loop at Bricket Wood. That would enable a 15 minute frequency. The only issue is maintaining the things.

Personally I’m surprised that Exeter - Okehampton isn’t on the list. Seems like a gimme.
 
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Starmill

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Can someone remind me. Will there be a Barnett wotsit for Scotland from this (ideally ring fenced for something useful like Peterhead, St Andrews or Leven)?
1. That isn't how Barnett consequentials work
2. Leven has already been funded
3. St Andrews and Peterhead are rather a long way from that stage
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Can someone remind me. Will there be a Barnett wotsit for Scotland from this (ideally ring fenced for something useful like Peterhead, St Andrews or Leven)?

Presumably yes, but there's no telling what Cardiff Bay and Holyrood will actually spend the money on.
It probably won't be hypothecated for specific rail re-openings, just "transport" or "local government".
Even the England announcement had road schemes in there (eg A66 improvement).
 

Romsey

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Local press item about Devizes.

Lydeway that is quoted in the article is just beyond where the A342 crosses the Berks & Hants. So it's a parkway station to the west of the old junction for Devizes at Patney and Chirton.

As for the Isle of Wight proposals...
WIBN on steroids again. It's only a feasibility study and like every other proposal it will grind to a standstill when the cost/benefit analysis is done. Having travelled quite a bit on the Island in the last couple of years visiting elderly relatives, there is very little bus traffic between settlements which had stations. Most of the trade is to settlements which never had a railway service. Also a high proportion of bus passengers are OAP's students or on pre paid "Key Cards". One day I boarded a bus at Cowes at 0945 and I was the first cash fare since the driver signed on at 0700!

Waterside line.
About time too. Something else for Three Rivers Rail Partnership to get involved with.
 

37424

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I wonder if there is some sneaky way of doing that without costing anything - the line is already there and passed for passenger use (for summer DalesRail and winter Lancashire Ramblers, aka "fresh air express" when I used it) - I wonder if there's enough slack in the diagrams for the Clitheroes to go there and back for little more than the cost of the diesel?
I doubt it current turn around time appears to be about 25mins at Clitheroe, current timing appears to be 23 mins just to to Hellifield from Clitheroe then of course 23mins back plus turn around time, then would a regular service block the main Leeds route woulds you need to alter the track layout at Hellifield to accommodate that or even reinstate the south bay platform. would it make more sense to be able to reverse the service at Hellifield and run it to Skipton meanwhile the cost meter is running.
 
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Joseph_Locke

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The usual negativity from Baldrick. Which of the 10 do you agree with and support then? Fawley and Leicester - Burton seem the most viable and realistic.

No, as Tobbes has already said, Bald Rick says it is it is and his post is measured, considered and based in fact.

Have you the SOC work to support your statement? No? then you're guessing.
 

RT4038

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Wellington is Somerset, Cullompton is East Devon. Both on the GWML area between Exeter St Davids, (Cullompton), Tiverton Parkway, (Wellington), Taunton.

I'm also intrigued by the Isle of Wight option too. Hopefully this will include Ventor, I wonder if Newport will be considered too?

And I'm pleased for the Waterside line!

Like the Watford Junction-St Albans Abbey line, isn't the Isle of Wight reinstatement a passing loop at Brading?
 

Bald Rick

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Plus
3) those who want to government to show some action towards shifting people out of their cars and decarbonising - at least it makes it look like the government is trying to do something
4) those who want to see the government investing in the regions in addition to big schemes like HS2 or those in London
5) those who likes trains
6) those who want public investment to improve the infrastructure (and kickstart the economy post Lockdown)

Whether anything significant will reopen as a result I don't know, but in total, there's a significant number of people who might be interested.

3) these people need to look at the science. For some (not all) of the proposals, spending hundred of millions of quid on lots of carbon intensive concrete and steel, to enable a 2 car DMU to run up and down a rural line at 3mpg, to save a few hundred car trips a day is not decarbonising. Quite the opposite. Particularly given that by the time any such line could be open, a majority of car trips are very likely to be close to carbon neutral.

4) granted. Given current circumstances, what do you think most people would vote for:
a) several hundred million on a new railway linking town x with town y, or,
b) less money on a new hospital for the whole region.

5) no comment!

6) is much the same as 4. Infrastructure doesn’t have to be railways. It can be housing, high speed broadband, off shore wind (loads of which is shovel ready, or more precisely deep pile ready), airport expansion, etc etc. Notably none of this needs Government capital funding up front.
 

Ianno87

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I doubt it current turn around time appears to be about 25mins at Clitheroe, current timing appears to be 23 mins just to to Hellifield from Clitheroe then of course 23mins back plus turn around time, then would a regular service block the main Leeds route woulds you need to alter the track layout at Hellifield to accommodate that or even reinstate the south bay platform. would it make more sense to be able to reverse the service at Hellifield and run it to Skipton meanwhile the cost meter is running.

Hellifield would cost one extra unit (basically just shy of half hour each way means extra hour on round trip). Skipton would cost two, so a doubling of the incremental cost.
 

Glenn1969

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Bury- Heywood- Rochdale would require trackwork at presumably Castleton Junction which is the ELR link to the national network. Would it also need an upgrade of the semaphore signalling at Castleton or has that happened already ?
 

swanhill41

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I did not see the No 10 show today,but there is a very heavy buzz on social media that Mr Shapps talked about the line in Northumberland and the one that interests me the Poulton to Fleetwood branch...Can anyone tell me whether the Fleetwood line was meant to be in addition to the lucky ten or that was for another time....BoJo visted the line on a surprise visit pre 2019 election and promised £100.0k for what is probably a business case as per todays lines....Can someone clarify please.
 

yorksrob

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I did not see the No 10 show today,but there is a very heavy buzz on social media that Mr Shapps talked about the line in Northumberland and the one that interests me the Poulton to Fleetwood branch...Can anyone tell me whether the Fleetwood line was meant to be in addition to the lucky ten or that was for another time....BoJo visted the line on a surprise visit pre 2019 election and promised £100.0k for what is probably a business case as per todays lines....Can someone clarify please.

They were both in the previous announcement, so I think they're through to the next stage.
 

theironroad

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Hopefully the Waterside Line near Southampton will get going as although the line needs upgrading it was still being used by freight until 3 or 4 years ago.
 

Wyrleybart

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Where does this announcement stand in relation to the West Midlands plans trickle fed to us over the last few months ?

Willenhall and Darlaston on the Grand Junction line between Bescot / Walsall and Wolverhampton

Aldridge

The Camp Hill stations Kings Heath, Moseley and Hazelwell

Castle Vale


The Mayor of the West Midlands has been "promoting" some of these on social media but none of them are mentioned in the press briefing by Grant Shapps. Perhaps they are "further on" in the pipeline maybe ?
 

The Planner

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Where does this announcement stand in relation to the West Midlands plans trickle fed to us over the last few months ?

Willenhall and Darlaston on the Grand Junction line between Bescot / Walsall and Wolverhampton

Aldridge

The Camp Hill stations Kings Heath, Moseley and Hazelwell

Castle Vale


The Mayor of the West Midlands has been "promoting" some of these on social media but none of them are mentioned in the press briefing by Grant Shapps. Perhaps they are "further on" in the pipeline maybe ?
Apart from Aldridge and Castle Vale they are all pretty much dead certs.
 

DynamicSpirit

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But what d this new line on the Isle of Wight. One would hope an extension from Shanklin to Ventnor but I can't see that happening due to the amount of demolition required in Wroxhall. So my guess is that there will be no new line at all, just a refurbishment of the existing line which is hardly "reversing Beeching".

I thought proposals were already underway for refurbishing the existing line, including the passing loop at Brading, so I'd be surprised if this was part of this funding package - could be wrong though.

Extension to Ventnor - presumably an extension as far as Wroxall would be relatively easy to build, though I'm not sure how much extra demand that would be able to soak up - Wroxall isn't exactly big, though it is a tourist area. Looking on Google maps, I can't even figure out where the old line to Ventnor went (does anyone know?). Given how hilly the terrain is between Ventnor and Wroxall, I can't believe a line there would be easy to build, which I guess confirms your suspicions.

The specific phrase 'reinstatement of branch lines' suggests to me that maybe what is actually being looked at is Ryde-Newport (though that is only one branch, not 'branches'). That seems doable if you can get an agreement with the heritage railway, and accept terminating about half a mile outside Newport Town Centre - which obviously is going to impact demand quite a bit.
 

Irascible

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Wellington / Cullompton: clearly deserving cases, but what willl stop there? If new services, where to, given that Bristol is pretty full post Metro West? If not new services, which of the London / Xc services do you add 7-8 minutes to, how, and what is the cost to those already on the trains?

The area I grew up in - am a bit far south to comment on local usage these days ( where's the extra loops on the WoE line in this proposal btw ) - but I'd be rather surprised if Cullompton was a regular stop on expresses, given it's just down the road from Tivvy Parkway & that is supposedly the railhead for a lot of north Devon. Dormitary traffic for Exeter, yes - but as you say where are the trains coming from then? maybe the more knowledgeable can present the case properly... I'm aware the locals have been campaigning for it for a long time now, but that's about as much as I know. Cullompton would be handy for me if I ever wanted to go to Padd rather than Waterloo for some reason as it's that bit nearer than Parkway but not enough that it'd bother me - my only real interest other than being an ex local.

Wellington on the other hand is a bit more inbetween places. Is there some northward extension of the Devon Metro idea I'm not aware of..
 

yorksrob

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What are the trains that stop at Highbridge etc between Bristol and Taunton. Surely these could be extended as stoppers ?
 

fgwrich

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I could either see an extension of the Devon Metro out to Taunton (Perhaps Plymouth or Paignton to Taunton?) or anything from Taunton extended to Exeter? What about the local services which stop at Taunton / Tiverton Parkway / Exeter?
 

Bedpan

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I thought proposals were already underway for refurbishing the existing line, including the passing loop at Brading, so I'd be surprised if this was part of this funding package - could be wrong though.

Extension to Ventnor - presumably an extension as far as Wroxall would be relatively easy to build, though I'm not sure how much extra demand that would be able to soak up - Wroxall isn't exactly big, though it is a tourist area. Looking on Google maps, I can't even figure out where the old line to Ventnor went (does anyone know?). Given how hilly the terrain is between Ventnor and Wroxall, I can't believe a line there would be easy to build, which I guess confirms your suspicions.

The specific phrase 'reinstatement of branch lines' suggests to me that maybe what is actually being looked at is Ryde-Newport (though that is only one branch, not 'branches'). That seems doable if you can get an agreement with the heritage railway, and accept terminating about half a mile outside Newport Town Centre - which obviously is going to impact demand quite a bit.

I was looking on Google Earth in conjunction with an old railway clearing house map and found that with the aid of the aerial view it is quite easy to follow the Ventnor line. The first part from Shanklin goes west and then arcs round to enter Wroxhall alongside the B3327. This part is shown as "The Sunshine Trail". On Street View you can see get onto the trackbed under the bridge where Castle Road crossed over the railway. The line would have then crossed St Martins Road on the level, by its junction with Station Road (but I doubt that St Martins Road would have existed prior to the railway closing, so Station Road would then have been a cul-de-sac with the station at the end. From there follow the line of trees, firstly crossing Brookside Crescent and then passing alongside the far end of Brookside Crescent, Follow the line of trees further and you come to the bridge where Manor Road crossed over the railway, You can also see the bridge, but not much of the overgrown trackbed, from this point.

Shortly after this the trackbed largely disappears but there are two small oval overgrown patches in two fields which I would think were remains. There is no evidence on Google Earth of where the line would have entered Boniface Down Tunnel but it would be somewhere in the large wooded area. However, if you draw a line from manor Road bridge through the two overgrown patches you will see the old station site at Ventnor which was hollowed out at the far end of the tunnel.
 

Irascible

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I could either see an extension of the Devon Metro out to Taunton (Perhaps Plymouth or Paignton to Taunton?) or anything from Taunton extended to Exeter? What about the local services which stop at Taunton / Tiverton Parkway / Exeter?

Mostly Parkway is served by Paddington or the NE-SW trains - I think there's a Bristol stopper from Exeter very early or late but I've rarely needed to be there then & iirc usually they terminate at Taunton. Paignton-Taunton all stops sounds a good idea on the surface ( I'm not qualified to go below the surface, I'm afraid ), or Taunton-Ex Central, or ... well, lots of things you could do I guess if there's the resources to actually lay on more services.
 
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infobleep

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When did the Abbey line close then? :s
You can report something is wrong with the page so I just did.

There is also the option is this page helpful, where you could put no and it might give you the opinion to comment.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Bury - Rochdale will be a good test of how you persuade a heritage railway to take on a commercial service, and how you persuade the ORR to accept the safety case. I can see that working, but id be surprised if it was anything more than a trundle.

Is it still the case that the ELR had aspirations for a terminal station in Castleton on the other side of the road bridge to that of the existing Castleton station, in the same land area originally occupied by the Blue Pits station of the Manchester and Leeds Railway.

There are currently non-stop services from Manchester to Rochdale en route to Leeds that will not wish to be be inconvenienced by such a described "trundle".
 
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