Government advice discussion

[GB]

My home is not big enough for much indoor exercise, especially with my existing conditions. And we may as well be talking about a permanent situation for someone as I'll as me! Anyone expecting this lockdown to be lifted in two more weeks will be disappointed, I bet.

I'm sure there are some exercises you can do. I live in a small flat and can manage basic things.

So please stop trying to deny me the simple pleasure of a couple of hours on the bike a couple of times a week just riding towards the very flat horizon and back. I do not understand this killjoy mania. I will not harm anyone unless you are in the habit of licking country roads despite the cow exhaust.

Again, no one, and I mean no one, is trying to take exercise away from you.

 

[yorksrob]

Meanwhile a close relative of mine in Yorkshire; a hospital doctor who had been training for a (now cancelled) marathon; is currently working overtime but exercising significantly less than he had been despite his potential exposure to high viral load.
I wonder why?

I would suggest that if you're no longer doing a marathon,you're probably not going to need to do intensive marathon training.

 

[edwin_m]

I think that's potentially debatable. If everyone perfectly follows the 'don't catch it' strategy then what happens when the lockdown is lifted - as it will have to be eventually - if we stopped the virus so effectively that almost no-one yet has any immunity to it... and then the someone brings the virus back in, for example perhaps from another country?

Even if the lockdown is so good that there is no more domestic infection then something like that is bound to happen. It would be a repeat of the early weeks in February with a handful of cases, but hopefully we would be better prepared for testing and contact tracing to prevent it becoming widespread again.

The other and more likely route is that the lockdown is far from perfect so there are still too many cases afterwards to deal with in that way. In that case the lockdown will need to be re-imposed to some degree when it looks like the trend would otherwise be exceeding the capacity of the NHS. That route will eventually lead to herd immunity if we don't get a vaccine first, but I can't see it taking any less than several years.

 

[island]

Surely the key phrase in that regulation is "a reasonable excuse". I would expect the police and courts to refer to the Government guidance when deciding whether or not a particular exercise outing is "reasonable" in terms of the regulation. So more than one outing per day, or a form of exercise that did not minimise the time outside the home, would be considered unreasonable unless there were exceptional circumstances.

The law says that a reasonable excuse includes the need to take exercise alone or with other members of one’s household.

If you are taking exercise, you have a reasonable excuse, because the law says so.

Other forms of activity not in the thirteen defined items on the list might also be reasonable excuses, but would have to be assessed. Taking exercise, on the other hand, is automatically deemed reasonable. And the law does not specify further on the form of exercise, nor how long one should spend doing it. The United Kingdom is governed by the rule of law, and something which is not prohibited by law is permitted.

 

[ashkeba]

I'm sure there are some exercises you can do. I live in a small flat and can manage basic things.

Again, no one, and I mean no one, is trying to take exercise away from you.

Can you name any exercises? The few I have done after surgery have been variously deathly dull (so very few will do them for long and worse public health will add to nhs strain) or ineffective (especially at raising heart rate) or both.

It realy does sound like you want to make exercise a dull chore.

 

[AndrewE]

Can you name any exercises? The few I have done after surgery have been variously deathly dull (so very few will do them for long and worse public health will add to nhs strain) or ineffective (especially at raising heart rate) or both.
It really does sound like you want to make exercise a dull chore.

A friend has an exercise bike which he is using after a recent knee operation, it apparently has electronic control of the load at the pedals.
As he is an electronics/computer whizz I suggested that he mount a Google Streetview screen in front of it, get the road gradients from somewhere and feed them back to the load on the pedals. The variation in loads is what makes cycling such good exercise - and drudgery if you're on a straight road somewhere flat with a headwind!
If anyone wants to patent and develop this, it was my idea!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can you name any exercises? The few I have done after surgery have been variously deathly dull (so very few will do them for long and worse public health will add to nhs strain) or ineffective (especially at raising heart rate) or both.

It realy does sound like you want to make exercise a dull chore.

I don't know how fit you are, but take a look at the likes of Freeletics (warning: the useful features aren't free despite the name) or similar stuff.

 

[telstarbox]

Also check out NHS Strength & Flex and Joe Wicks workouts - neither of them need any equipment beyond your normal furniture.

 

[scotrail158713]

Also check out NHS Strength & Flex and Joe Wicks workouts - neither of them need any equipment beyond your normal furniture.

Just be warned - Joe Wicks is tougher than it looks. I had a go at it one day last week and could barely walk the rest of the day.

 

[ainsworth74]

More attempts to make their own rules up under the ruse of the legislation and Government guidance this time impacting on retailers:

Convenience stores selling Easter eggs are facing interference from “heavy-handed” officials trying to restrict the range of goods they can sell under coronavirus curbs, a trade body says.

Some shops have been told by police and local councils that the chocolate eggs are considered non-essential goods.

The Association of Convenience Stores (ACS) blamed “overzealous enforcement and a misreading of the rules”.

It has told shopkeepers to carry on selling a full range of goods.

“The government have defined which stores can remain open, and that includes convenience stores, including newsagents and off-licences,” said ACS chief executive James Lowman.

“There is no government definition of which products can be sold within those stores.

“In the cases where officers have challenged retailers and shoppers in this way, it’s brought confusion, distracted retailers in the busiest weeks of their lives and increased the interactions between people at a time when the government is trying to minimise them.”

...

Link

I mean if it was an "Easter Egg Shop" fair enough that's clearly non-essential but just your average shop? Man the power is really going to some people's heads it seems

 

[Wivenswold]

I've got arthritis and chronic pain syndrome so I'm under a 12 week curfew. I can fully recommend indoor exercise bikes, especially ones that tell you how many calories you've burned. Sadly the days I can use it are limited and none when it's this cold.

 

[bussnapperwm]

More attempts to make their own rules up under the ruse of the legislation and Government guidance this time impacting on retailers:



Link

I mean if it was an "Easter Egg Shop" fair enough that's clearly non-essential but just your average shop? Man the power is really going to some people's heads it seems

You give someone a uniform and a council badge/Warrant card and they think they're Hitler.

Bloody jobsworths

 

[Islineclear3_1]

More attempts to make their own rules up under the ruse of the legislation and Government guidance this time impacting on retailers:



Link

I mean if it was an "Easter Egg Shop" fair enough that's clearly non-essential but just your average shop? Man the power is really going to some people's heads it seems

Looks like we are taking a massive stride into a totalitarian and dystopian police state

 

[Greybeard33]

The Government has updated the guidance material on its website, now dated 29 March (was 23 March) - see https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...avirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do. It is now more detailed, and clarifies some previous "grey areas". Worth reading all of it, but here are some extracts:

Regarding travel to work:

Should I stay at home or go to work?
Certain jobs require people to travel to their place of work – for instance if they operate machinery, work in construction or manufacturing, or are delivering front line services such as train and bus drivers.

Employers and employees should discuss their working arrangements, and employers should take every possible step to facilitate their employees working from home, including providing suitable IT and equipment to enable remote working.

I’m not a critical worker and I can’t work from home. What should I do?
If you cannot work from home then you can still travel to work. This is consistent with the Chief Medical Officer’s advice.

Critical workers are those who can still take their children to school or childcare. This critical worker definition does not affect whether or not you can travel to work – if you are not a critical worker, you may still travel to work provided you cannot work from home.

How can I find out if my work is essential or not?
The government is not saying only people doing “essential” work can go to work. Anyone who cannot work from home can still go to work.

Separately, there is a list of critical workers who can still take their children to school or childcare. Provision has been prioritised for these workers.

Every worker – whether critical or not – should work from home if they can but may otherwise travel to work.

So TOCs (e.g. Northern) should not be saying that their remaining services are for "key workers" only.

Regarding exercise:

Can I walk my dog / look after my horse?
Yes – provided it is alone or with members of your household.

People must stay at home as much as possible to reduce the spread of the virus. But you can also still go outside once a day for a walk, run, cycle. When doing this you must minimise the time you are out of your home and stay at least two metres away from anyone else that isn’t from your household.

Can I drive to a national park or other green space to walk?
We advise you to stay local and use open spaces near to your home where possible – do not travel unnecessarily.

You can still go to the park for outdoor exercise once a day but only by yourself or within your household, not in groups.

We ask you to keep 2 metres apart from others outside your household at all times when outdoors.

So no defined time limits on exercise, other than implied by the advice to stay local and minimise the time out of your home. And no absolute prohibition of the use of a car or public transport to get to a local open space for exercise, if "necessary".

 

[Bantamzen]

More attempts to make their own rules up under the ruse of the legislation and Government guidance this time impacting on retailers:



Link

I mean if it was an "Easter Egg Shop" fair enough that's clearly non-essential but just your average shop? Man the power is really going to some people's heads it seems

Looks like we are taking a massive stride into a totalitarian and dystopian police state

Indeed, and these are exactly the kind of things that need to get stamped on quickly & hard. OK it might be reasonable to say to someone shopping exclusively for Easter eggs that it is an unnecessary journey, but if bought as part of the weekly shop they need to be told to step away.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, and these are exactly the kind of things that need to get stamped on quickly & hard. OK it might be reasonable to say to someone shopping exclusively for Easter eggs that it is an unnecessary journey, but if bought as part of the weekly shop they need to be told to step away.

Aldi might be the best example of this. Going specifically to buy an angle grinder, a pair of curtains and a cross-trainer from the middle aisle is clearly not essential, but if you buy those items when you are going to get bread and milk because you've run out there is really no sense in preventing that.

 

[Bantamzen]

Aldi might be the best example of this. Going specifically to buy an angle grinder, a pair of curtains and a cross-trainer from the middle aisle is clearly not essential, but if you buy those items when you are going to get bread and milk because you've run out there is really no sense in preventing that.

Indeed, but who knows if allowed to go unchecked things won't get any more extreme? You want bread & milk? Fine! But bags of crisps, a chocolate bar & a bottle of cheap plonk? To The Tower with you...…

It sounds crazy, but there are pen-pushers out there in the public sector just desperate to exert a bit of power, and a Treasury that is going to run dry very, very quickly....

 

[edwin_m]

Aldi might be the best example of this. Going specifically to buy an angle grinder, a pair of curtains and a cross-trainer from the middle aisle is clearly not essential, but if you buy those items when you are going to get bread and milk because you've run out there is really no sense in preventing that.

As long as you don't drop the angle grinder or the cross-trainer on your foot and end up in hospital...

You're probably OK to drop the curtains though.

 

[MarkyT]

As long as you don't drop the angle grinder or the cross-trainer on your foot and end up in hospital...

You're probably OK to drop the curtains though.

You're probably just as likely to drop an existing item on your foot, and the angle grinder might be to replace an existing tool with an intermittent fault caused by degraded insulation that could have electrocuted you! I'd say access to at least some basic hardware items could be considered highly desirable, if not completely essential and could avoid the potentially higher infection risk of having to get a tradesman in to do a very small job, for which they might not be able to get the materials anyway!

 

[MarkyT]

...So no defined time limits on exercise, other than implied by the advice to stay local and minimise the time out of your home. And no absolute prohibition of the use of a car or public transport to get to a local open space for exercise, if "necessary".

I'd say the consensus emerging down here in Devon is that you should only exercise locally and not use a car to get to an open space. Devon people seem totally incapable of walking out of their houses and all physical activity has to be preceded by a car journey. There has been a lot of rather unpleasant argument about just this on some local Facebook groups. One thing that fuels the rancour is the misunderstanding that the pavements are so crowded and it's dangerous to walk quickly past someone on a pavement in open air closer than 6ft apart. Clearly as long as they're not violently exhaling and you don't touch then there's effectively zero risk during the seconds you're closer than this. I'd say a good rule of thumb in this scenario is turn your head away and don't talk until you're at least 2m away again. And of course with vastly reduced traffic on the road it's often safe to step into the carriageway anyway to give someone a wide berth if you want.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Realistically the only people who NEED to drive to exercise are those in rural areas who live on a high speed main road with no pavement. Or those in a wheelchair who have issues with pavement parking near their home.

Literally everyone else can exercise directly from home. It might not be as nice but that's not the point.

 

[MarkyT]

Realistically the only people who NEED to drive to exercise are those in rural areas who live on a high speed main road with no pavement. Or those in a wheelchair who have issues with pavement parking near their home.

Literally everyone else can exercise directly from home. It might not be as nice but that's not the point.

Exactly, but some of the extremists on that group I mentioned are arguing that even in that circumstance the individuals should be taken out and shot or at least denied any NHS treatment. There was even an old geyser with heart trouble who was castigated for driving two miles every few days to tend to his allotment. Seeing as he's most likely growing veg, then he's actually securing his own food supply, and perhaps that of others!

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed, but who knows if allowed to go unchecked things won't get any more extreme? You want bread & milk? Fine! But bags of crisps, a chocolate bar & a bottle of cheap plonk? To The Tower with you...…

It sounds crazy, but there are pen-pushers out there in the public sector just desperate to exert a bit of power, and a Treasury that is going to run dry very, very quickly....

According to a friend of mine, their supermarket's 3 item limit was applied to individual bottles of ale ! There was, however nothing to stop you getting three bottles of gin.

 

[Bletchleyite]

According to a friend of mine, their supermarket's 3 item limit was applied to individual bottles of ale ! There was, however nothing to stop you getting three bottles of gin.

This appears to be happening with fruit as well - 3 individual apples or 3 bags of 6!

It's rather poorly thought through.

 

[Tetchytyke]

More attempts to make their own rules up under the ruse of the legislation and Government guidance this time impacting on retailers:



Link

I mean if it was an "Easter Egg Shop" fair enough that's clearly non-essential but just your average shop? Man the power is really going to some people's heads it seems

It's almost as though police and public health officials have form for taking a mile when they're given an inch of our liberty.

Even if it was "Easter Eggs R Us" it's still food.

As for "essential" shops, clothes shops are apparently not essential. But if I go out with nowt on, PC Plod will decide that clothes are essential after all.

Aldi might be the best example of this. Going specifically to buy an angle grinder, a pair of curtains and a cross-trainer from the middle aisle is clearly not essential, but if you buy those items when you are going to get bread

Hardware stores are essential.

So you can buy an angle-grinder as it is essential, but a new pair of underpants is a frivolity that MUST BE PUNISHED.

The whole thing is a blasted joke.

Erich Honeker would be proud.

 

[Ianno87]

Exactly, but some of the extremists on that group I mentioned are arguing that even in that circumstance the individuals should be taken out and shot or at least denied any NHS treatment. There was even an old geyser with heart trouble who was castigated for driving two miles every few days to tend to his allotment. Seeing as he's most likely growing veg, then he's actually securing his own food supply, and perhaps that of others!

Whilst avoiding social contact by needing to buy said food in the supermarket!

This appears to be happening with fruit as well - 3 individual apples or 3 bags of 6!

It's rather poorly thought through.

Although probably easier to blanket program in tills to flag up.

 

[MarkyT]

It's almost as though police and public health officials have form for taking a mile when they're given an inch of our liberty.

Even if it was "Easter Eggs R Us" it's still food.

As for "essential" shops, clothes shops are apparently not essential. But if I go out with nowt on, PC Plod will decide that clothes are essential after all.

Good points. Pure sucrose may not be a balanced diet, but it's cheap and if that's all you've got it is a viable source of energy to keep you alive and active.

 

[greyman42]

Aldi might be the best example of this. Going specifically to buy an angle grinder, a pair of curtains and a cross-trainer from the middle aisle is clearly not essential, but if you buy those items when you are going to get bread and milk because you've run out there is really no sense in preventing that.

The cross trainer and other exercise equipment would allow you to take some exercise in the house, so would be a good thing.

 

[ashkeba]

A friend has an exercise bike [...]

That's not going to fit in the flat, along with the obvious problem of a guy with a cane lifting it up stairs, but I'll bare the other suggestions in mind for if outdoer exercise is banned as some want. They look very unattractive compared to an outdoor cycle. Even with the risk to life, I think it'll e difficult to keep doing them more than 15 days.

 

[ashkeba]

The Government has updated the guidance material on its website, now dated 29 March (was 23 March) - see https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...avirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do. It is now more detailed, and clarifies some previous "grey areas".

This is a new meaning of "clarifies" when it disagrees with and exceeds the law, such as the once a day for exercise.