Government Scraps Plans For Rail 5G Transpennine Trials

[Ih8earlies]

*poker face*
Of course I for one am shocked. SHOCKED that this has been abandoned...

On a more serious note, this article makes interesting reading.

www.gizmodo.co.uk/2019/02/government-scraps-plans-for-5g-train-trials/

Government Scraps Plans For 5G Train Trials

By Holly Brockwell on 01 Feb 2019 at 10:00AM
It sounded too good to be true, and it was.

The Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) announced back in August that it was looking for partners to trial 5G along the Trans-Pennine rail route between Manchester and York, as part of a £35m scheme to improve connectivity on trains.

Some eyebrows were raised at the news, given that on many trains you still can't even load a tweet, and our scepticism has now been validated with the news that that part of the project has been cancelled.

The overall scheme, called the Trans Pennine Initiative (TPI) has three parts, of which the 5G train trial was part 3:

1. An LFFN [local full-fibre networks] focused element, deploying high capacity fibre along the Trans Pennine route from Manchester to York, to provide backhaul capacity for open access points along the route, and test a commercial model for fibre deployment on the railways. It also provides a high capacity inter-connection between the Manchester and Leeds Internet Exchanges, thereby strengthening critical internet infrastructure within the Northern Powerhouse.
2. An upgrade to the existing Network Rail test track (the Rail Innovation and Development Centre, RIDC) at Melton Mowbray, to enable it to trial new technologies including 5G.
3. Passive infrastructure including masts along the Trans Pennine route, to enable radio trials of high quality passenger connectivity on trains.

However, a new update to the scheme quietly drops part 3:

The CFI [call for interest] sought feedback on, and interest in, testing passive infrastructure, including masts, along the Trans Pennine route, to enable radio trials of high quality passenger connectivity on trains.

Although there was interest in the concept of the trial, the market was not prepared to participate on the basis of the available funding (covering equipment provision only) and that following the trial a supplier could be required to remove their equipment.

 

[Sleeperwaking]

*poker face*
Of course I for one am shocked. SHOCKED that this has been abandoned...

Who would have thought it would be so difficult and expensive to undertake construction work through a mountain range? I am SHOCKED AND AGHAST.

 

[Elecman]

We could always make passiv3 provision for this 5G metallic infrastructure by allowing Network Rail to install steel masts say every 50 -70 metres along the length of the route ( including in the tunnels) along with any SPS and catenary wire that might be deemed necessary by NR / NPR for railway use!

I’ll get my coat.

 

[The Lad]

That's a good idea

 

[WatcherZero]

It was jumping the gun tbh, moving straight to deployment and live testing in a very restrictive environment and skipping development testing.
Learn to walk before you run.

 

[Skie]

Couldn't they create a separate fibre network, rent capacity on it and then add extra radios to the GSM-R masts that are, you know, already placed in the correct locations? I'd be surprised if the existing GSM-R radios couldn't be segmented to safeguard railway comms but also allow other spectrums to be used.

I know there may be the issue of planning permission as the masts were intended solely for railway use but A: This is solely railway use...kinda, or B: They could pass legislation to make it all okay as part of a national infrastructure deal.

 

[47271]

Can I ask a technical question relevant to this thread?

When Virgin used to offer 'enhanced' mobile connection on its Pendolinos as I recall I could maintain conversations through tunnels in a way that I can't now. I was never so bothered about data connections coming and going because I've got my own technology - for example Outlook running offline - to deal with that.

What changed to kill off the Virgin service, and could the Transpennine routes not benefit from this 'enhanced' technology rather than £35m of 5G?

 

[Roger100]

Proper 5G with all the reported benefits has been allocated bandwidth in Europe around 24 to 27 GHz. These frequencies will need vastly more masts than currently used for 4G, and the signal far more susceptible to the weather we're having at the moment. Buildings, trees (especially when wet) etc obstruct signals far more than 4G. There's a lot of work needed before a practical 5G network is feasible, especially for a train full of passengers switching masts/cells every 2 seconds or even less.

The 5G that some phone manufacturers are supposedly producing phones for this year will have nothing like the promised performance. They will use frequencies similar to those used by 4G and perhaps double the current performance at best. The hardware currently existing will require somewhat thicker phones, and consumes far more electricity than 4G technology.

I think using an add-on to GSM-R (about which I know little) is probably not on. GSM-R wasn't designed to accommodate hundreds of passengers per train watching video. Providing an effective 4G system would probably be pretty expensive, it's not just a matter of putting up masts. But it could be done, financed by increased taxes or phone contracts.

 

[68000]

GSM-R is a 2G voice system that will need upgrade for ETCS. The masts were put up without planning permission as part of Network Rail permitted development rights for railway operational systems. Putting non-railway operational infrastructure on the masts may break the PDR and the masts may be subject to planning permission. That opens up a whole can of worms

 

[Class 170101]

GSM-R is a 2G voice system that will need upgrade for ETCS. The masts were put up without planning permission as part of Network Rail permitted development rights for railway operational systems. Putting non-railway operational infrastructure on the masts may break the PDR and the masts may be subject to planning permission. That opens up a whole can of worms

Didn't the government propose similar to this though in the last year or so to improve mobile communications for passengers on trains by using 'spare' capacity in the GSMR network?

 

[Skie]

When Virgin used to offer 'enhanced' mobile connection on its Pendolinos as I recall I could maintain conversations through tunnels in a way that I can't now. I was never so bothered about data connections coming and going because I've got my own technology - for example Outlook running offline - to deal with that.

iirc they removed this kit when installing wifi/Beam. Onboard radio from the between seat sockets went too.

It was never very enhanced either, limited network support and, again iirc, no provision for data services just voice.

 

[WatcherZero]

Didn't the government propose similar to this though in the last year or so to improve mobile communications for passengers on trains by using 'spare' capacity in the GSMR network?

Yeah but they were proposing that to fill in the gaps in 3G coverage. (usually rural areas where the line is far from habitation so little motivation for the networks to build) but they would still have been within trackside GSM-R mast coverage.

 

[Comstock]

Wouldn't most people rather have an extra carriage on each service to ease overcrowding? ( I've no idea how the costs would compare )

 

[matacaster]

I wonder if 5G trials will be re-emerge somewhere in London and South East, possibly even on the tube network?

 

[HSTEd]

Honestly I am not very convinced that 5G will actually ever go anywhere.... the saturation of public WiFi all over the place is sort of eating up its use case.

And one of my uni colleagues who now does a PhD developing components for use in these systems agrees.....

 

[Meerkat]

the saturation of public WiFi all over the place is sort of eating up its use case.

Really? Am I unusual in avoiding public wi-if if it’s at all possible? I would rather pay for a decent data limit on my phone contract and avoid all the sign ons and security issues.

 

[HSTEd]

Really? Am I unusual in avoiding public wi-if if it’s at all possible? I would rather pay for a decent data limit on my phone contract and avoid all the sign ons and security issues.

Well the security issues can be mitigated by over-the-top encryption, especially now many devices report random MAC addresses to open wifi hotspots.
The reduction of price of mobile data has proceeded rapidly, but it is still all too easy to eat it all up with video or audio streaming services, let alone the multimedia heavy websites of today.

 

[whhistle]

Wouldn't most people rather have an extra carriage on each service to ease overcrowding? ( I've no idea how the costs would compare )

I'm sure the average rate is something like £1 million per carriage.
So you'd get just 35 carriages.
Not so sure people would appreciate that against having excellent connectivity all over the route. I'd prefer the latter.

 

[whhistle]

...but it is still all too easy to eat it all up with video or audio streaming services, let alone the multimedia heavy websites of today.

Depends. On the whole I agree but it's still fairly hard.
I get 34GB a month for just £15.
I haven't ever got past 10GB, even when I've tried. That's helped by having free data on social media, which seems to be a slowly growing fad.

The problem is signal - in many places I can't get a strong enough signal to make use of my data.

Admittedly, it's too much data but when I came to renew, a couple of companies couldn't throw enough at me.
I'll change down and pay less later this year when I renew again.

 

[Meerkat]

Well the security issues can be mitigated by over-the-top encryption, especially now many devices report random MAC addresses to open wifi hotspots.
The reduction of price of mobile data has proceeded rapidly, but it is still all too easy to eat it all up with video or audio streaming services, let alone the multimedia heavy websites of today.

How do you know the public wi-fi is secure, how do you know you are even connecting to the real one?
No such worries if you just use your own data, which I have never got near running out of, and you don’t have to worry about log ons and giving out details to anyone.

 

[kevjs]

How do you know the public wi-fi is secure, how do you know you are even connecting to the real one?
No such worries if you just use your own data, which I have never got near running out of, and you don’t have to worry about log ons and giving out details to anyone.

Hotspot 2.0 should help there - Enterprise level security (each device using the WiFi has it's own security keys rather than sharing) and roaming built in from the start. E.g. your local shopping centre, could, support Hotspot 2.0 so any EE customer would connect with no further interaction. Google (Android) have got facilities in their devices (not sure about Apple) which would then establish a VPN (secure network tunnel) back to a trusted network access point - in this case all your traffic would be encrypted inside the VPN all the way until it reaches the EE network. Not too dissimilar to how EE Customers connect to London Underground WiFi (you are authenticated using your SIM Card and don't key in any details manually).

As for 5G it could come in very handy for extending high speed fixed broadband to those in rural areas some distance from the exchange / cabinet where fibre to the premise is unlikely to be viable (although the range issues stunt this somewhat) but much more usefully for providing much more capacity in urban areas - e.g. sports stadiums, railway stations, city centres and the like. 5G can use the same frequencies as 2G, 3G, 4G but these don't offer as much capacity - but increase the range - which may help the fixed wireless service in some rural areas - Isolated houses and small hamlets far from the masts can get away with the lower capacity offered by the lower frequencies needed for the increased range, those in Marinas, Caravan Parks, Lorry Parks and the likes where a 5G mast is situated nearby also get to use the higher bandwidth connections .

 

[HSTEd]

How do you know the public wi-fi is secure, how do you know you are even connecting to the real one?
No such worries if you just use your own data, which I have never got near running out of, and you don’t have to worry about log ons and giving out details to anyone.

With modern technology whether or not it is secure can be easily made irrelevant.

The WiFi network can be used as an untrusted link and the data passed over already encrypted.
You can also prove its real by having the phone try to reach a trusted server and initiate a challenge-response test.

Eduroam is also an example of what can be achieved. It allows secure WiFi roaming without necessarily trusting the intermediary

 

[Meerkat]

That all sounds like things you need to do, rather than just use as normal (and some hotels don’t even bother with passwords so don’t want to rely on the wi-fi network). And you still have to sign on to most networks, often handing over details for their marketing.

 

[JamesT]

With modern technology whether or not it is secure can be easily made irrelevant.

The WiFi network can be used as an untrusted link and the data passed over already encrypted.
You can also prove its real by having the phone try to reach a trusted server and initiate a challenge-response test.

Eduroam is also an example of what can be achieved. It allows secure WiFi roaming without necessarily trusting the intermediary

eduroam has secure authentication and you’re encrypted over the air. But you’re on the network run by the host institution, you might not necessarily want to trust them.
But as you noted, running a VPN back to somewhere you do trust lets you ignore the security of the first hop.

 

[nidave]

We could always make passiv3 provision for this 5G metallic infrastructure by allowing Network Rail to install steel masts say every 50 -70 metres along the length of the route ( including in the tunnels) along with any SPS and catenary wire that might be deemed necessary by NR / NPR for railway use!

I’ll get my coat.

Bit late to the party but they do that on the tube in London I seem to recall MTV falling off air due to the Camden derailment in 2003 - and also on the electricity pylons already so its not as silly as it sounds

 

[kevjs]

That all sounds like things you need to do, rather than just use as normal (and some hotels don’t even bother with passwords so don’t want to rely on the wi-fi network). And you still have to sign on to most networks, often handing over details for their marketing.

With Hotspot 2.0 you put your SIM Card in your phone and your phone will automatically connect and do all the hard work for you - you won't pass your details onto the company running it as they won't know them - which does mean many networks won't bother doing it unfortunately. Municipal WiFi and Public Transport networks seem to be the most useful and likely candidates for it to appear on.

 

[HSTEd]

That all sounds like things you need to do, rather than just use as normal (and some hotels don’t even bother with passwords so don’t want to rely on the wi-fi network). And you still have to sign on to most networks, often handing over details for their marketing.

The thing about modern electronics is that anything like that can be very easily automated by a firmware implementation once you know you have to do it.
Also I happen to keep an email address solely for eating up marketing requests.