Governments Bus Plan: Could this benefit Grimsby?

Discussion in 'Buses & Coaches' started by Jorge Da Silva, 1 Jan 2020.

  1. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

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    The Governments bus strategy announced in September 2019 including a number of plans:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-better-deal-for-bus-users/a-better-deal-for-bus-users

    how could this benefit Grimsby. Any routes being introduced or reinstated? Maybe a few frequency increases?

    maybe services more frequent on routes 3 and 4 at weekends, increased frequency of route 7, 9, 10 (every 15 minutes) and 12 every 30 minutes limited extensions of 12W. Potential frequent extensions of 7 to Laceby and Aylesbury. Also later evening services on route 7 at a reduce frequency of hourly or half-hourly after 7pm
     
    Last edited: 1 Jan 2020
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  3. 175mph

    175mph Member

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    Bring back the extension to South Killingholme on the number 5 route.
     
  4. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

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    Yes. Maybe a reinstatement of 150 from South Killingholme to Grimsby maybe running via the current 5S route.
     
  5. 175mph

    175mph Member

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    Or the route 450 from Barton extend beyond South Killingholme to Grimsby via Immingham and make the route hourly?
     
  6. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

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    Seems logical. So we have so far:

    • Routes 3 and 4 increased to every 10 minutes Mon-Sat and 15 minutes on Sunday
    • increased frequency of route 7 to every 15 minutes
    • increased frequency of routes 9 and 10 to every 15 minutes
    • increased frequency of route 12 to every 30 minutes with limited extensions of 12W.
    • Extension of 7 to Laceby and Aylesbury.
    • later evening services and Sunday services on route 7 at a reduce frequency of hourly or half-hourly after 7pm
    • Extension of route 150 to Grimsby via South Killingholme and Yarborough Road
    • 5M made more regular during peak times?
     
  7. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

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    Maybe route 25 made more regular
     
  8. Tetchytyke

    Tetchytyke Established Member

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    ...but probably not, so I wouldn't get carried away with the crayons.
     
  9. 175mph

    175mph Member

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    But that's the beauty of forums like this, as long as one's imaginative ideas don't get too ridiculous, there's no problem, and not counting my own idea about the 450 route, I don't think any ideas presented so far are ridiculous, they strike the right balance of imaginative and within the realms of possibility. Now, if an idea was given such as a London style bus network with buses every two or three minutes, that would be going too far with the 'crayons'.
     
  10. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

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    • Routes 3 and 4 increased to every 10 minutes Mon-Sat and 15 minutes on Sunday
    • increased frequency of route 7 to every 15 minutes
    • increased frequency of routes 9 and 10 to every 15 minutes
    • increased frequency of route 12 to every 30 minutes with limited extensions of 12W.
    • Extension of 7 to Laceby and Aylesbury.
    • later evening services and Sunday services on route 7 at a reduce frequency of hourly or half-hourly after 7pm
    • Extension of route 150 to Grimsby via South Killingholme and Yarborough Road and Replace Limited 5S
    • 5M made more regular during peak times
    • 25 Become hourly
    • 50 become hourly
    Updated: Make routes 50 and 25 regular during weekdays
     
  11. Deerfold

    Deerfold Established Member

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    A "review" of BSOG sounds like they're getting ready to cut it.
     
  12. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

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    No I think they are planning to give it to directly to the council to spend on cutting fairs and higher frequency services instead of the paying to the bus operators.
     
    Last edited: 4 Jan 2020
  13. Deerfold

    Deerfold Established Member

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    Bus Services Operators Grant as in the OP.
     
  14. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    The crayons remark was rather pointed (but funny). However, I do get the sentiment.... It's all well and good to say X or Y can be increased but why?? Why are they imaginative? Why are they realistic/possible?

    That that end, we might query how likely/realistic it is to have
    • 15 min Sunday service on the 3/4, doubling it so its the equivalent of the current Saturday service?
    • Doubling the 7, extending it as well to Laceby (so it gets more buses in an hour than it current gets in a day!)
    • Doubling the 9/10 so both are now every 15 mins (so operating 7/8 mins).
    • The 25 and 50 to hourly when they are a handful of journeys?
    We can all simply look at timetables and say "oooh, we could double that" but it needs a bit more thought than that. If you don't, you could easily have a repeat of the Rural Bus Challenge funding that many councils wasted.
     
  15. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

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    routes 3/4 run every 30 mins on Saturdays but every 15 mins on weekdays.

    I live in the town. If 7 is doubled then 9 would have to be seen as they run together and the 7 can get busy during the weekdays because it used by students for Grimsby Institute, University Centre Grimsby and Franklin. Laceby itself is only served by the Humber Flyer every hour plus Laceby is served by a number of route 7 buses after 5pm until 7pm when the route no longer runs. 10 continues as route 8. Route 12 only runs every hour used to run more frequently and has been cut in recent years.
     
    Last edited: 5 Jan 2020
  16. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    Do the 3/4 operate that? If so, the online timetables appear to be wrong (or have I the wrong 3?) https://tiscon-maps-stagecoachbus.s...idlands/Grimsby/EMID-TT-Grimsby-003-Apr19.pdf

    Apologies for being picky but if you have these plans, it would be good to know?

    • Current M-F, Sa and Su frequencies
    • Proposed M-F, Sa and Su frequencies
    • Rationale behind your proposals
    • The amount of additional vehicles/resources required
     
  17. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

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    ok stand corrected

    • Currently every 15 mins Mon-Saturday: Routes 3 and 4 increased to every 10 minutes Mon-Sat and 30 minutes on Sunday. This route can get very busy during the weekdays and providing a more regular service of 10 minutes would relieve some of this congestion
    • Currently every 30 minutes: increased frequency of route 7 to every 15 minutes: I use this regularly. Often full by the time it gets from Taylor’s Ave to Town so a more regular service on the Weekdays when a lot of students use the route would spread the demand out and relieve congestion.
    • Current every 30 minutes: increased frequency of route 9 to every 15 minutes: Currently routes 7 and 8 continue as 9 and 10 IF route 7 is increased then route 9 would have to be increased to every 15 minutes as well.
    • Current every 60 minutes: increased frequency of route 12 to every 30 minutes with limited extensions of 12W: Often subject to cuts as it is currently not part of the simplibus diagram and having more regular service would encourage more people to use the service and better serve the areas it serves.
    • Currently only severed 4 times a day after 5pm until 7pm: Extension of 7 to Laceby and Aylesbury: This would better serve Laceby as only the Humber Flyer which runs every 60 mins serves Laceby itself, and seem as Route 7 already runs to Laceby on occasions it makes sense to extend route 7. Plus a lot of people of Laceby have to use the Humber Flyer to get to Grimsby Institute so by extending the 7 it would better serve students from Laceby to get to Franklin and The Institute.
    • Currently no Sunday service and no services after 7pm: later evening services and Sunday services on route 7 at a reduce frequency of hourly or half-hourly after 7pm: As a user of the route it would be very useful to have a Sunday service even if it was every hour as it would be used by people of Curzon Ave, Warwick Road, Ladysmith Road, Taylor’s Avenue and Humberston.
    • Used to exist but was axed in around 2010 but route 5 used to extend to South Killingholme but was axed and many have called for this to be reversed so by reinstating 150 it would better serve Yarborough road which also saw a reduction in service after route 5 was diverted via the Willows so the western end of Yarborough Road is only served once a day : Extension of route 150 to Grimsby via South Killingholme and Yarborough Road and Replace Limited 5S
    • 5M made more regular during peak times: Used to be more regular but was cut due to funding cuts however has been saved making this more regular would help people who work at Immingham.
    • 25 Become hourly: Only 2-3 buses a day and would better connect places like Nunsthorpe, Binbrook and Market Rasen
    • 50 become hourly: It serves Humberston Academy so would be popular during school periods which is when it operates currently but if made more regular it would connect Grimsby Town better with people of Tetney, Humberston (new housing development is being built), Ladysmith Road and New Waltham.
     
    Last edited: 5 Jan 2020
  18. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

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    Answered your questions see my post
     
  19. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    Think you're being rather optimistic. Remember the sums involved viz:
    • £30 million extra bus funding to be paid direct to local authorities to enable them to improve current bus services or restore lost services
    • £20 million to support demand responsive services in rural and suburban areas
    That's not actually a lot of money.

    Also, whilst you say...
    ...is technically correct but doesn't answer why it should be done. Is there a need? Really?
     
  20. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

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    These places are not connected and could provide a shorter link between Grimsby and Market Rasen as well as serving places like Binbrook, West Ravendale and East Ravendale.
     
  21. markymark2000

    markymark2000 Member

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    Councils don't control fares or frequencies of services except on those which they subsidise (even then, the only area I know of to set fares on subsidised services on large scale is Merseyside)

    Bus operators can use BSOG To lower fares for all of the passengers where as councils would only lower fares on the granny routes where very few people pay anyway. Seems a bit useless. It's surely better with the operator.
     
  22. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

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    the idea is that the council carry’s out the necessary purchases such as extra buses and the operators provide the services.
     
  23. markymark2000

    markymark2000 Member

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    Oh yes because councils purchasing buses for operators goes down a storm doesn't it. (*Cough* TFGM Hybrid Solos *Cough*)
     
  24. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    Really? These places are connected (just not that frequently) and not sure what makes you think that there's a need for that, more that the current provision? Is there really a need to go from one journey each way on Tues/Fri, to an hourly service 6 days a week. So instead of 2 journeys per week, you're looking at 50-60....... Also, in what way is it a shorter link between Grimsby and Market Rasen? It takes 1h20 vs the 53 taking 50 mins...

    We can all look at a service and say "we can double that" and "it might generate more custom". However, and appreciate that this may be before your time, but we had a splurge of money in the early 2000s. It was the Rural Bus Challenge and it was aimed at calming down people in rural areas who were hacked off about fuel prices (caused by the duty charged). Some local authorities were really good at using the money but in many cases, there were ridiculous instances of services being upgraded because they just could, not because they should. There's limited funding (£30m doesn't go far nationally) so it's a case of being a bit more savvy and targeted.
     
  25. Deerfold

    Deerfold Established Member

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    Whilst some routes under RBC were a waste there were a couple of successes local to me.

    The 500 Keighley - Hebden Bridge was increased from a Weekend and Wednesday service of 3 buses a day (3 daily in July/August) to an daily hourly service 12 hours a day (now renumbered B3).

    The 900 (now 900/901) (Huddersfield-Ripponden-Halifax) links that had disappeared 25 years before, initially 3 times a day. This has increased to roughly hourly (and 3 on a Sunday, initially summer only) the hours it runs being sufficient for someone doing a 9-5 job in Huddersfield.
    I remember a summer weekend only service that served Huddersfield and Ripponden twice a week and don't remember a link to Hebden Bridge. It initially also carried parcels and would divert off route if you phoned the driver.
    Less successful were link routes to the station at Sowerby Bridge. New (now unused) bus stops were built at the station. These services seemed to be poorly advertised and the buses difficult to identify as buses even when in service (they were small minibuses, usually with a piece of paper in the windscreen showing the route number).
     
  26. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    Indeed and some counties were better than others.

    In North Yorkshire, they improved the services up Wensleydale from Northallerton, or from Richmond to Leyburn to Ripon and they still operate (albeit with subsidy). Improving the Sunday service from Darlington to Richmond/Catterick was also done. However, Sunday services from Richmond to Barnard Castle....

    In my now adopted county of Somerset, some of the services that gained Sunday services have prospered (possibly a pump priming effect whilst also riding on the back of increases in Sunday trading) but many of the improvements simply were unsustainable once austerity kicked in.
     
  27. Geordie driver

    Geordie driver Member

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    30 million is what, 40p per person in the UK? It's nothing, if the entire amount was spent on Grimsby you would see significant change.

    It's a fraction of what is needed,but as long as the system remains as it I thing will only get worse, and i can see no prospect of change.
     
  28. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    My point entirely. Put it another way.... it's about 250-300 buses working full time across the UK.
     
  29. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

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    Page 13: http://www.nelincs.gov.uk/wp-conten...t-Framework-Report-Draft-compressed-Part3.pdf

    if the western urban extension happens and a new link Road is built then routes 3 and 4 could be extended to the new developments as well as routes 1,2, 20 and 5 being suggested for rerouting/extensions.

    routes 2/20 or 5 could be extended to the northern complex known as St Nicholas View (north west of Wybers Wood)
    Routes 3/4 could be extended to the new Laceby Holt development (near Morrison’s) and Freshney Springs (South west of Wybers Wood, north of Laceby Holt)
     
    Last edited: 10 Jan 2020
  30. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

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  31. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    IF.....

    Also, not quite certain what your point is? Surely this would be s.106?
     

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