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Govia Thameslink Railway stock shortage

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MatthewRead

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Today I had the worst journey with Southern short formations which led to unnecessary overcrowding, tatty seats that look all faded and worn and worst of all emergency engineering works which led to several cancellations as well as Southern branded electrostars operating the Thameslink London Bridge services and these had Southern branding now whats going on I know it's the same owner GoVia but can't they use 319s on these services I know they can't stop between East Croydon and Redhill but they should still be able to work the Brighton services why can't they?
 
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Chrisgr31

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I don't travel at the weekend, but the clue in part might be the emergency engineering works. As soon as there are emergency works on the Brighton main line the whole service goes up the creek.

Not sure how many trains were short formed today, but it may be that the problems were actually the engineering works meaning they had to cancel loads of trains therefore creating capacity issues on the rest?
 

MatthewRead

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I don't travel at the weekend, but the clue in part might be the emergency engineering works. As soon as there are emergency works on the Brighton main line the whole service goes up the creek.

Not sure how many trains were short formed today, but it may be that the problems were actually the engineering works meaning they had to cancel loads of trains therefore creating capacity issues on the rest?
They wouldn't even make the Gatwick Expresse's stop additionally at East Croydon the services was so poor I think GoVia should be stripped of the franchise if they can't run a proper decent train service.
 

ExRes

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They wouldn't even make the Gatwick Expresse's stop additionally at East Croydon the services was so poor I think GoVia should be stripped of the franchise if they can't run a proper decent train service.

I'm sure you're a little emotional after a disrupted day, but how much of the actual disruption was down to GoVia ?, probably none I would hazard, you can't blame the TOC for emergency engineering work
 

MatthewRead

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I'm sure you're a little emotional after a disrupted day, but how much of the actual disruption was down to GoVia ?, probably none I would hazard, you can't blame the TOC for emergency engineering work
But a lot of people think Southern provide a poor service and should be stripped of it's franchise.
 

tsr

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But a lot of people think Southern provide a poor service and should be stripped of it's franchise.

The TSGN network is run under a management contract, including Southern and the rest of the routes, not really as a traditional franchise. In all likelihood neither the Government (through DOR or whatever) nor any other organisation would probably want to take that off GTR unless serious safety or financial failings arose which were their fault. The issues you mention were partly down to DfT rolling stock specification, partly due to the appalling (but due to various pressures, quite understandable) performance of Network Rail's assets, and in turn also partly but not wholly down to GTR. In fact there have not been a particularly huge amount of short formations today, especially not this afternoon, and the marginally more significant issue has been crew shortages over the last few days at Norwood and Selhurst crew depots, which as I understand it is not presenting itself as a long-term serious problem just at the minute. Tatty seats and such like on trains are certainly quality of service issues, and all of these will be monitored increasingly regularly over the next few months and years. Of all the things to criticise GTR for, I really think these things you've posted should not be most important. Important yes, most important / contract-limiting, no.
 

yorkie

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But a lot of people think Southern provide a poor service and should be stripped of it's franchise.

I suggest this thread remains a discussion on stock shortage than a debate about whether or not GTR are doing a good job running the TSGN franchise.
 

LBSCR Times

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I suggest this thread remains a discussion on stock shortage than a debate about whether or not GTR are doing a good job running the TSGN franchise.

There was only 1 shortage at the start of service today, and that was a Gatwick Express service running 5 vice 10 (lack of serviceable 442's).

The problem started when there was a rail defect on the Up Quarry line and all northbound services had to run up via Redhill.
This means everything over one line, from the south end of Gatwick Airport, to south of Purley.
The contingency plans require the 'Southern' branded services from Brighton are cancelled, with the Gatwick Express services running through. However, the only extra stops permitted on these trains are at Three Bridges, to pick up passengers from the Horsham route, because these services are required to terminate there.
Furthermore, the Brighton to London Bridge services are required to terminate Gatwick, thus meaning you go from 8 trains an hour from Brighton to London, down to 4 an hour, and with 10 car trains on the Victoria services, it is not possible to strengthen.
 

NickBucks

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Travelled on Southern's service from Tring to Kensington Olympia & return today. I have no axe to grind for Southern- I use this service once per year. Today both journeys were on time to the minute in both directions. The 377 stock was clean and not tatty in any way. Pleasant guard as well. I have no complaints.
 

Envy123

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GTR is in my eyes a good TOC, at least on the GN locals (may be different on TL and Southern as I don't use them regularly enough to comment on them). Mostly on time and I've sometimes came to rely on them when the Piccadiily Line was down. They have their problems but so does TfL from time to time.

I like them and I actually want to keep using them, even when I'll move a bit further out from where I am now.
 
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MatthewRead

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What I can't understand is why can't they use 319s on regular Brighton diagrams instead of Southern branded 377s it's not like there is new signalling installed that prevents them running down there so why can't they run Saturdays like they do on other days of the week.
 

bengley

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What I can't understand is why can't they use 319s on regular Brighton diagrams instead of Southern branded 377s it's not like there is new signalling installed that prevents them running down there so why can't they run Saturdays like they do on other days of the week.

Nobody cares what logos their train has on. Some of the London Bridge - Brighton services use 387s which are TL branded. I think you need to stop worrying so much about what logos are printed on your train.
 

MatthewRead

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Nobody cares what logos their train has on. Some of the London Bridge - Brighton services use 387s which are TL branded. I think you need to stop worrying so much about what logos are printed on your train.
But it could cause confusion and I partly blame that for short formations on several South Coast services which were only 4 carriages when they should have been 8. Also a Bognor Regis train got cancelled simply because only the part to Southampton was available.
 

MCR247

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But it could cause confusion and I partly blame that for short formations on several South Coast services which were only 4 carriages when they should have been 8. Also a Bognor Regis train got cancelled simply because only the part to Southampton was available.

SN branded stock on TL is booked so is not the cause of the short formations, try agian.
 

Stow

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What I can't understand is why can't they use 319s on regular Brighton diagrams instead of Southern branded 377s it's not like there is new signalling installed that prevents them running down there so why can't they run Saturdays like they do on other days of the week.

Well, 319's cost more to operate, are less environmentally friendly (no regen braking), around 4 times less reliable, no airconditioning to name a few reasons.
 

Fincra5

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SN branded stock on TL is booked so is not the cause of the short formations, try agian.

I was going to say the same thing! :) TLK are booked some SN stock on LBG services as they don't require OHLE...

This frees up OHLE equipped trains to TLK whilst keeping the TLK services to LBG.

This has been going on since the Summer Timetable Change.
 

MatthewRead

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SN branded stock on TL is booked so is not the cause of the short formations, try agian.
Yes it was these were Southern 377 units which should have been on the Victoria services not on the Thamslink London Bridge-Brighton diagrams
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well, 319's cost more to operate, are less environmentally friendly (no regen braking), around 4 times less reliable, no airconditioning to name a few reasons.
They were regulars last year on the Three Bridges services but now that they stop at Coulsdon South and Mertsham they can't run due to there being no DOO mirrors what I'm trying to say is by having them on the LB/Brighton run it releases a Southern 377 for use elsewhere by strengthening a South Coast service from Victoria.
 

yorkie

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As it's all one train operating company, they can use whatever stock they see fit on whatever services they see fit, to make best use of capacity.
 

Class377/5

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Yes it was these were Southern 377 units which should have been on the Victoria services not on the Thamslink London Bridge-Brighton diagrams
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They were regulars last year on the Three Bridges services but now that they stop at Coulsdon South and Mertsham they can't run due to there being no DOO mirrors what I'm trying to say is by having them on the LB/Brighton run it releases a Southern 377 for use elsewhere by strengthening a South Coast service from Victoria.

No stock is taken from Southern to Thameslink. I know that as a fact.

As for 319s on the mainline, there are now more 319 workings to Brighton than a in the last timetable change.

Using Thameslink to be Redhill stoppers doesn't free up extra units like you think it does either. Its actually the use of Southern 377s DC only units on the London Bridge services that has allowed the extra units required on the Thameslink Redhill stopping route (it's 16mins long so requires a few extra trains a day).

So all that Southern services get in decrease journey times on the former Redhill routes.
 

ScotGG

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90% of problems aren't down to any TOCs.

Fundamentally we have a problem of rapidly rising populations, thus passenger numbers, and politicians who do little about it and wont provide what is necessary to accommodate it.
 

MatthewRead

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No stock is taken from Southern to Thameslink. I know that as a fact.

As for 319s on the mainline, there are now more 319 workings to Brighton than a in the last timetable change.

Using Thameslink to be Redhill stoppers doesn't free up extra units like you think it does either. Its actually the use of Southern 377s DC only units on the London Bridge services that has allowed the extra units required on the Thameslink Redhill stopping route (it's 16mins long so requires a few extra trains a day).

So all that Southern services get in decrease journey times on the former Redhill routes.
There can't be I haven't seen a single 319 working on the Brighton Main line this year apparently they are only used on weekdays and Sundays but not Saturdays now why is that?
 

Class377/5

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There can't be I haven't seen a single 319 working on the Brighton Main line this year apparently they are only used on weekdays and Sundays but not Saturdays now why is that?

Well I've seen an 8 car 319 going to this morning. Just because haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

They used on all the days IIRC but are required to operate more services in the week with extra peak services to Orpington for example. As for why the day's are different, well that's because there are more 387s out Saturday (26x 387s are required Monday-Saturday, its 24 or 22 on Sundays) than Sunday with difference maintenance planned out so hence the variation.
 
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Fincra5

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There can't be I haven't seen a single 319 working on the Brighton Main line this year apparently they are only used on weekdays and Sundays but not Saturdays now why is that?

There was one arriving when I was setting up my train around 1245ish.

I've also seen 319's running the line, so yes there is a few diagrams on the BML using them.
 

traji00

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They just don't run on Saturdays for some strange reason.


Less trains required than M-F peaks? Correct me if I'm wrong guys, but aren't there enough 377/5 & 387 to run the full Bedford-Brighton service?
 

Class 170101

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90% of problems aren't down to any TOCs.

Fundamentally we have a problem of rapidly rising populations, thus passenger numbers, and politicians who do little about it and wont provide what is necessary to accommodate it.

Politicans can only provide what we will allow them to tax us for.
 

LBSCR Times

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Less trains required than M-F peaks? Correct me if I'm wrong guys, but aren't there enough 377/5 & 387 to run the full Bedford-Brighton service?

Enough units for a weekend, but not a weekday, considering that 377's / 387's also work to Beckenham Jct / Sevenoaks, and there are some internal to the South Eastern, so 2 x 8.319 have a working to / from Brighton each weekday.
 

Minstral25

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GTR's shortage of stock seems to be getting worse. Many short forms along Redhill yesterday and one unit presumably now damaged from the tree down on the Tonbridge line.

I have heard that stock utilisation which was 90% in 2012 is now up to 96% - that leaves very little available for maintenance and I'd assume a very high risk of not running a full service.
 

Class377/5

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GTR's shortage of stock seems to be getting worse. Many short forms along Redhill yesterday and one unit presumably now damaged from the tree down on the Tonbridge line.

I have heard that stock utilisation which was 90% in 2012 is now up to 96% - that leaves very little available for maintenance and I'd assume a very high risk of not running a full service.

Two out of service due to tree damage. Significant % of available out of service. Only way to provide more capacity ahread of 387/2 and 700 arrivals.
 

DerekC

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90% of problems aren't down to any TOCs.

Fundamentally we have a problem of rapidly rising populations, thus passenger numbers, and politicians who do little about it and wont provide what is necessary to accommodate it.

As a generalisation that statement might have some merit, but applied to the route which is having more new rolling stock than anywhere else in the country, it is a bit rich!
 
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