Grand Central cancels plans to run London - Blackpool service

[DenmarkRail]

Since we have no official word (although I note the reputation of the OP), I fear this speculation is misguided. There are many different things that GC could be doing right now which we lack awareness of here.

They may well be making the staff redundant with an eye to rehire at a later date. They may be planning to utilise the MK4 stock elsewhere. They may be planning to drop the route all together. The simple fact is that other than a few Facebook groups, 'a few sources', and 'friends of a friend' we know very little.

Many will be reading this tonight wondering what's next for their career. People who have dedicated their lives to the railway, and people who were planning to dedicate their lives to the railway. I think we may owe it to them to ease of the speculation just a little, and await further confirmation.

I wish GC all the very best with whatever decisions are going on in their commercial departments. They won't be easy choices. Obviously I wish every member of staff the very best too.

 

[DoubleO]

Since we have no official word (although I note the reputation of the OP), I fear this speculation is misguided. There are many different things that GC could be doing right now which we lack awareness of here.

They may well be making the staff redundant with an eye to rehire at a later date. They may be planning to utilise the MK4 stock elsewhere. They may be planning to drop the route all together. The simple fact is that other than a few Facebook groups, 'a few sources', and 'friends of a friend' we know very little.

Many will be reading this tonight wondering what's next for their career. People who have dedicated their lives to the railway, and people who were planning to dedicate their lives to the railway. I think we may owe it to them to ease of the speculation just a little, and await further confirmation.

I wish GC all the very best with whatever decisions are going on in their commercial departments. They won't be easy choices. Obviously I wish every member of staff the very best too.

Ironically there is as much speculation in this post as in any of the previous ones....it's not speculation and it's not misguided. Could GC revisit the project in the future, requiring both rolling stock and staff? Yes, I suppose they could. But that is speculation. All we know for a fact is the project has been pulled and the staff are sadly no longer required. Consultation and union discussions etc are still to take place.

 

[johntea]

Running isn't it?

Unless you mean could it go the same way? Quite possibly at some point if numbers don't return to pre-COVID levels.

Could be interesting times ahead for the Bradford to London service, it's essentially a West Yorkshire tour through to Doncaster then non stop to London, but a lot of the previous business commuters are probably sat working from their West Yorkshire homes now rather than trips to London and the leisure market isn't much better! (Presumably it can't call anywhere after Doncaster due to tight pathing?)

 

[DB]

Could be interesting times ahead for the Bradford to London service, it's essentially a West Yorkshire tour through to Doncaster then non stop to London, but a lot of the previous business commuters are probably sat working from their West Yorkshire homes now rather than trips to London and the leisure market isn't much better! (Presumably it can't call anywhere after Doncaster due to tight pathing?)

There's also the issue of it not being allowed to be primarily abstractive as it's open access, which limits the number of 'major' stations it's allowed to call at. The Sunderland service runs non-stop south of York.

 

[MATTWILLIS2016]

Confirmed by depot manager:


Well just to clear the rumours up it is with a heavy heart that GC Blackpool to London Euston service won’t now happen due to the current economic climate caused by Covid ..... I’m absolutely gutted and for the incredible staff we have for Blackpool we had the makings of a fantastic depot with fantastic staff ... hopefully we will get placed elsewhere within the Arriva group

I will keep this group going for now as there will be stock moves at some point

Thanks to everyone who supported the group and all us at GC

 

[37424]

Could be interesting times ahead for the Bradford to London service, it's essentially a West Yorkshire tour through to Doncaster then non stop to London, but a lot of the previous business commuters are probably sat working from their West Yorkshire homes now rather than trips to London and the leisure market isn't much better! (Presumably it can't call anywhere after Doncaster due to tight pathing?)

Indeed and if LNER go ahead with the planned 2 hourly to Bradford at some point that will increase the pressure, I wouldn't unfortunately put much money on any of the open access services surviving at the moment, and expect Grand Union Plans for Cardiff and Stirling will be put in the back of the filing cabinet

 

[irish_rail]

With Avanti recruiting drivers at least, I'd say they will be set up with better paid more secure jobs at liverpool and manchester. Fingers crossed there are alternative roles and vacancies for all the GC staff etc. Sad, but probably not surprising thanks to Covid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Confirmed

He may not thank you for posting that. OK, he's losing his job anyway, but it could affect his employment prospects at Arriva in future by having scooped the official press release by publically posting something on a public forum that was in a closed FB group? I'd suggest editing his name off.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It is only right that employees get to hear of decisions about their future before the general public.
GC/Arriva/DB have to protect their wider interests in UK rail, and we will have to see what this decision means for their business as a whole.
Overall, it's not surprising that open access cutbacks are necessary in the current climate.
The longer term impact of Covid on the DfT-supported railway is still to come.

 

[8J]

With Avanti recruiting drivers at least, I'd say they will be set up with better paid more secure jobs at liverpool and manchester. Fingers crossed there are alternative roles and vacancies for all the GC staff etc. Sad, but probably not surprising thanks to Covid.

It is very sad indeed. Unfortunately, whilst some of the ex GC staff involved were fully qualified drivers or guards, a significant number of them were trainees and I very much doubt that Avanti will want them.

XC in Manchester or Leeds may be an option as an Arriva TOC but again, that very much relies on there being vacancies.

 

[The Planner]

He may not thank you for posting that. OK, he's losing his job anyway, but it could affect his employment prospects at Arriva in future by having scooped the official press release by publically posting something on a public forum that was in a closed FB group? I'd suggest editing his name off.

This isn't the only place that appears, it is on Twitter as well.

 

[ScottParko]

He may not thank you for posting that. OK, he's losing his job anyway, but it could affect his employment prospects at Arriva in future by having scooped the official press release by publically posting something on a public forum that was in a closed FB group? I'd suggest editing his name off.

I saw it third hand on facebook all from open groups including the original post that he himself wrote, so I don’t think there’s any issues on anyone’s part on here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This isn't the only place that appears, it is on Twitter as well.

Ah, if he's posted it publically requoting it here probably isn't an issue then.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Announcement now on the GC web site: https://www.grandcentralrail.com/ne...blackpool-london-route-falls-victim-covid-19/

Richard McClean, Manging Director of Grand Central, said: “So much effort has been put into these exciting plans to launch services between London and Blackpool, that it is heart-breaking to have to abandon them at this point but the pandemic and its effect on our expansion plans have just proved too big an obstacle.
“Because Grand Central operates under an Open Access business model, we receive no external financial help and we rely completely on what we generate in ticket sales. Despite months of work to adjust our costs, and monitor travel behaviour for signs of change it became more obvious to us that to invest in what is essentially a start-up enterprise in this climate was simply not feasible and therefore we reluctantly reached the very tough decision to cease the project permanently.
“We will now concentrate on rebuilding our two existing routes, which returned to service earlier this summer, following lockdown.

Using the word "permanently" presumably means they will return the allocated WCML access rights and paths to NR for reuse.

 

[8stewartt]

I can see virgin using these paths as a way to get back onto the west coast. Shame as that GC livery looked superb on those MK4’s.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I can see virgin using these paths as a way to get back onto the west coast. Shame as that GC livery looked superb on those MK4’s.

With current and projected rail usage I’m not sure any new entrant would have much success getting a new setup off the ground now

 

[The_Train]

It's very sad to hear, if not unsurprising in the current circumstances. The sets look fantastic and would have been great to have 90s in service on the WCML again but covid wins again!

What will GC be doing with the mk4 sets now? Will they be able to simply return them to the owners or will they be stuck with them for the period of the agreed lease?

edit: found the thread discussing the stock

I can see virgin using these paths as a way to get back onto the west coast. Shame as that GC livery looked superb on those MK4’s.

The same Virgin that are cutting jobs in all sorts of divisions within its group? I know some people believe that the Virgin brand will bring the hoardes out, but it won't. If passenger numbers aren't there, then there is no money to be made

 

[DarloRich]

GC have now tweeed to confirm the position.

This must be awful news for the staff involved, doubly so at such a confusing and difficult time. They are who I am worried about and I hope they will be placed with the wider Arriva group.

 

[The Planner]

I can see virgin using these paths as a way to get back onto the west coast. Shame as that GC livery looked superb on those MK4’s.

What for? they cannot just "use" them either. There is a lengthy process in terms of sale of access rights.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Using the word "permanently" presumably means they will return the allocated WCML access rights and paths to NR for reuse.

The Access Rights now just fall away - they are not "returned" as such. The paths (or part of them) will be free for anyone to bid into and, if they are new train slots, they will have to obtain fresh rights from the ORR.

 

[BluePenguin]

What possible reason could there be to do that? Grand Central have informed their staff and made a public announcement

Because what is made in an announcement and shared with the media is not always the same as what is sent to staff internally. Anyone who has worked for company will know what I mean. Never mind, the cat is already out of the bag

 

[Ianno87]

Announcement now on the GC web site: https://www.grandcentralrail.com/ne...blackpool-london-route-falls-victim-covid-19/


Using the word "permanently" presumably means they will return the allocated WCML access rights and paths to NR for reuse.

Strategically, you'd seek to keep hold of them until somebody else wanted access that conflicted with them, at which point NR/ORR would consult on removing the rights (to which GC wouldn't really have grounds to object to, and no doubt wouldn't given today's statement)

Because what is made in an announcement and shared with the media is not always the same as what is sent to staff internally.

For which there might be very good reasons to be the case, and really should be kept that way.

I'm sure operators are very conscious of how easily internal information gets leaked on social media anyway.

 

[BluePenguin]

For which there might be very good reasons to be the case, and really should be kept that way.

I'm sure operators are very conscious of how easily internal information gets leaked on social media anyway.

The railway is one of the few industries with staff that respect their peers and uphold their community values. Back stabbing is not common. I would like to think that a screenshot shared amongst other rail enthusiasts would be kept private and not emailed to the media. But I take your point. Companies must take steps to cover themselves

I’m sure more information will come out in the coming days

Back on topic, do people think that the main reason for GC scrapping their Blackpool service was the lack of potential custom or more due to high costs? Everything seemed so ready and good to go.

On another note, whether the paths will be given to Avanti to run more trains Blackpool is another question

 

[Ianno87]

Back on topic, do people think that the main reason for GC scrapping their Blackpool service was the lack of potential custom or more due to high costs? Everything seemed so ready and good to go.

Costs are costs, and running a train operation is always expensive.

Likely reality is it's going to take quite a few years for rail patronage to recover compltely to pre-Covid levels. Even a small drop will make the operating margins of Open Access evaporate.

 

[geoffk]

There's also the issue of it not being allowed to be primarily abstractive as it's open access, which limits the number of 'major' stations it's allowed to call at. The Sunderland service runs non-stop south of York.

Yet the planned First service from KX to Edinburgh is wholly abstractive.

 

[Ianno87]

Yet the planned First service from KX to Edinburgh is wholly abstractive.

No it isn't.

Remember that Air Travel is (pre-Covid) the dominant mode for travel between London and the Central Belt.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On another note, whether the paths will be given to Avanti to run more trains Blackpool is another question

They are presumably now available for anyone to bid for, be that Avanti or anyone else.

Yet the planned First service from KX to Edinburgh is wholly abstractive.

Their argument is similar (though in a different way) to the LNR dedicated fares on the WCML, i.e. that they're not abstractive, but rather they broaden the rail market by taking more people from cars/coaches/budget airlines rather than by abstracting from LNER by offering a distinct product.

 

[Failed Unit]

No it isn't.

Remember that Air Travel is (pre-Covid) the dominant mode for travel between London and the Central Belt.

Depends how you look at it, considering where you live

I can't see it making much impact on someone wanting to do Old Street - The Royal mile. I think they will still be too slow compared to air so it is taking on the LNER head to head.

For us however, we can drive to Stansted / Luton or take a train from London - Stevenage.

It will be very interesting how many of us it converts to rail - will I use it? Who knows depends on the quality and times of the trains. However the majority of my journeys are already by rail so it will hurt LNER unless the product is really dreadful.

Just going back to the open access generally. Hull Trains actually is a good comparison for this. The set up and got hit by Hatfield. Had Hatfield happen before they were moving would they have stopped - we will never know. But if they market really exists I expect this operator to try again once confidence returns.

 

[Journeyman]

No it isn't.

Remember that Air Travel is (pre-Covid) the dominant mode for travel between London and the Central Belt.

It's an interesting one - I live to the west of Edinburgh, and I'm closer to the airport than I am to Waverley, but overall I find there's actually very little in it timewise between air and rail options, based on where I usually travel. I tend to go more by price than anything else, and depending on day of the week, time of year and amount of time I'm booking ahead, the prices can vary enormously. I'll certainly be tempted to try First's service when it starts - providing it isn't utterly horrible, if it turns out to be really cheap they could win me over.

 

[Starmill]

It's an interesting one - I live to the west of Edinburgh, and I'm closer to the airport than I am to Waverley, but overall I find there's actually very little in it timewise between air and rail options, based on where I usually travel. I tend to go more by price than anything else, and depending on day of the week, time of year and amount of time I'm booking ahead, the prices can vary enormously. I'll certainly be tempted to try First's service when it starts - providing it isn't utterly horrible, if it turns out to be really cheap they could win me over.

This point comes up regularly here - it depends on one's tolerance of risk when taking a domestic flight. Some people will insist on planning to arrive at the airport two hours or more before the flight departure time. If you're using public transport that might be extended to 2h10 or 2h20 by the frequency of the bus. Other people are happy to arrive at the airport minutes before check-in closes (assuming that they know what time that is at the airport in question).