Former Grand Central HSTs now with EMT

[Muzer]

Some will be scrapped though, it's inevitable.

It's funny, people thought that when the Virgin CrossCountry HSTs were going off lease. But they didn't.

(However, I personally believe that this time, some HSTs will be scrapped).

 

[Techniquest]

What 40 years in service they are still useful and some of the best machines

Against advice given off-forum, I've had a read of this thread. I went fast to the last page initially, which is good as I discovered 180108 has left GWR. That's two that have gone now then, as 180104 is with Hull Trains (had it recently) I note. Not many more to go before they go bye-bye. Again. Don't friggin' send them back west this time!

Then I discovered this post.

Yes they have done well. Yes they have been hugely enjoyable over the years. However, they're now overdue retirement and scrap. As much as they will be missed, it is time to move on.

I need 4 of the GC HST power cars, but I've come to the conclusion that I will probably never get them all. It's just how it goes. If I get them then happy days, technically I have anyway as I got them before re-numbering. However it is unrealistic!

 

[swt_passenger]

I heard some info floating about on the internet that AXC may take them on; this was quite a few months ago, and the rolling stock cascade situation seems to be changing more than the country's political climate! Scrap would seem a likely alternative, but who knows?

This thread is one particular internet source of that 'info', but I still say it has no basis in fact. It never rated a mention in the XC announcement of their intended Dec 2017 timetable rejig that emphasises all the extra seats that re-diagramming the existing fleet and one extra 4 car Voyager allows for...

 

[MatthewRead]

Aren't the Grand Central HST's going to be used on the new Euston-Blackpool service next year?

 

[FordFocus]

If they still are in a workable state I still believe they should continue primarily as there is a rolling stock capacity shortage. XC seems a logical place for them but I guess the cost vs benefit will not be sufficient for Arriva to consider it.

 

[Townsend Hook]

That's two that have gone now then, as 180104 is with Hull Trains (had it recently) I note.

AFAIK all the GWR units have been secured by GC and will eventually end up there. Short term hires of GWR 180s by HT have been a fairly regular occurence for some years, which presumably is what was happening with 180104 when you had it.

 

[Townsend Hook]

Aren't the Grand Central HST's going to be used on the new Euston-Blackpool service next year?

Track access application says 91s and Mk4s..

 

[cactustwirly]

Against advice given off-forum, I've had a read of this thread. I went fast to the last page initially, which is good as I discovered 180108 has left GWR. That's two that have gone now then, as 180104 is with Hull Trains (had it recently) I note. Not many more to go before they go bye-bye. Again. Don't friggin' send them back west this time!

Then I discovered this post.

Yes they have done well. Yes they have been hugely enjoyable over the years. However, they're now overdue retirement and scrap. As much as they will be missed, it is time to move on.

I need 4 of the GC HST power cars, but I've come to the conclusion that I will probably never get them all. It's just how it goes. If I get them then happy days, technically I have anyway as I got them before re-numbering. However it is unrealistic!

180104 is back with GWR, arbeit with HT antimacassars.

 

[Jonny]

Will GBRf have its eyes on the HSTs? Partly for its parcels plan, and partly for "footex" services.

Given that the GC HSTs have buffers etc., is there also the possibility of the power cars being used in back-to-back pairs as locomotives?

 

[CosherB]

Will GBRf have its eyes on the HSTs? Partly for its parcels plan, and partly for "footex" services.

Given that the GC HSTs have buffers etc., is there also the possibility of the power cars being used in back-to-back pairs as locomotives?

No, and no.

 

[swt_passenger]

Aren't the Grand Central HST's going to be used on the new Euston-Blackpool service next year?

IIRC it was mentioned as a short term fall back position in the first track access applications, but that has now timed out because GC failed to meet the deadline to organise ANY rolling stock. As someone else has said, the latest cunning plan is for Mk4/91 sets. Equally unlikely IMHO, but what do I know (see the 442 saga)...

 

[swt_passenger]

AFAIK all the GWR units have been secured by GC...

That is a fact, it's stated explicitly in the GWR franchise agreement, that they are on lease to GC:

Note b (page145)
Four of the Class 180 units (20 vehicles) will be subject to a sub-lease arrangement from Grand Central after the lease expiry date shown pending withdrawal from service linked to the IEP stock delivery.

Lease expiry date shown in the accompanying table was Dec 2016.

 

[D365]

Will GBRf have its eyes on the HSTs? Partly for its parcels plan, and partly for "footex" services.

Given that the GC HSTs have buffers etc., is there also the possibility of the power cars being used in back-to-back pairs as locomotives?

No, and no.

How many pages worth of discussion did we have about this again?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Aren't most of GC's HST trailers formerly LHCS vehicles? Presumably the wiring will be in better shape than those built as HST trailers, as they were rewired as part of the conversion. Possibly newer overall, too?

 

[Suraggu]

IIRC it was mentioned as a short term fall back position in the first track access applications, but that has now timed out because GC failed to meet the deadline to organise ANY rolling stock. As someone else has said, the latest cunning plan is for Mk4/91 sets. Equally unlikely IMHO, but what do I know (see the 442 saga)...

And even that is in doubt now due to VTEC requiring to hold onto the 91/Mk.4 fleet longer due to the infrastructure upgrades being behind schedule and the Class 800's now being behind schedule.

 

[43096]

Aren't most of GC's HST trailers formerly LHCS vehicles? Presumably the wiring will be in better shape than those built as HST trailers, as they were rewired as part of the conversion. Possibly newer overall, too?

Overhaul and conversion done by Marcroft so quality "variable". Conversion is mostly about taking stuff off: in simple terms all Mark 3s run on 415V 3ph AC, it's just how they get it. HST stock are fed from the power car ETS, LHCS have MA sets (or static converters on the Chiltern stock) to produce the 3ph supply.

As for age, the Mark 3a LHCS went into production before the HST stock.

 

[cjmillsnun]

As for age, the Mark 3a LHCS went into production before the HST stock.

They went into production before the HST stock yes, but only one year before, and were in production for two years after the HSTs were finished.

They are all roughly the same age.

 

[Townsend Hook]

Aren't most of GC's HST trailers formerly LHCS vehicles? Presumably the wiring will be in better shape than those built as HST trailers, as they were rewired as part of the conversion. Possibly newer overall, too?

They are, and ironically a number of the loco hauled Mk3s on Greater Anglia are former HST trailers..

 

[43096]

They are, and ironically a number of the loco hauled Mk3s on Greater Anglia are former HST trailers..

Two of them, to be precise!

 

[HSTEd]

I think it would be political poison to scrap diesel stock at this time, unless they are actively dangerous.

More likely they will be put out to pasture for spot hire.

 

[47802]

I think it would be political poison to scrap diesel stock at this time, unless they are actively dangerous.

More likely they will be put out to pasture for spot hire.

Don't see why that would be a particular issue 40 year old trains being scrapped, even if they are a vastly superior train they are older than Railbuses which will be scrapped.

 

[HSTEd]

Don't see why that would be a particular issue 40 year old trains being scrapped, even if they are a vastly superior train they are older than Railbuses which will be scrapped.

When was the last time diesel units (and that's effectively what HSTs are) were scrapped except for accident damage?
It will be a brave DfT mandarin that allows them to be scrapped on the ministers watch, especially will still prevalent overloading issues in the news

 

[RichmondCommu]

When was the last time diesel units (and that's effectively what HSTs are) were scrapped except for accident damage?
It will be a brave DfT mandarin that allows them to be scrapped on the ministers watch, especially will still prevalent overloading issues in the news

First generation DMU's in the 1980s and 1990s. The class 141s were sold off to anyone who wanted to buy them.

 

[yorksrob]

First generation DMU's in the 1980s and 1990s. The class 141s were sold off to anyone who wanted to buy them.

I think they were just pipped to the post by the venerable thumpers (class 205/207) which were retired in 2004/5 after well over forty years of service.

 

[route:oxford]

It will be a brave DfT mandarin that allows them to be scrapped on the ministers watch, especially will still prevalent overloading issues in the news

First find the DfT "mandarin" who'll be prepared to put his signature to a document instructing the use of rail vehicles that have a risk of failing catastrophically whilst in passenger use

It'll be salami withdrawal and scrap on the basis of structural integrity.

 

[Northhighland]

First find the DfT "mandarin" who'll be prepared to put his signature to a document instructing the use of rail vehicles that have a risk of failing catastrophically whilst in passenger use

It'll be salami withdrawal and scrap on the basis of structural integrity.

It will be brave two say they are life expired in one part of the uk and argue they have a fifteen year life expectancy in Scotland?

Surely with overcrowding still a fact of life all over the network they will have a part to play going forward.

 

[cjmillsnun]

First find the DfT "mandarin" who'll be prepared to put his signature to a document instructing the use of rail vehicles that have a risk of failing catastrophically whilst in passenger use

It'll be salami withdrawal and scrap on the basis of structural integrity.

If structural integrity is an issue then they'll have been withdrawn already, even if that means services cannot run.

 

[43096]

First find the DfT "mandarin" who'll be prepared to put his signature to a document instructing the use of rail vehicles that have a risk of failing catastrophically whilst in passenger use



It'll be salami withdrawal and scrap on the basis of structural integrity.

So are you saying that Mark 3s are not structurally safe? What evidence do you have for that?

DfT (and Transport Scotland) have put their name to continued use by signing off use of HSTs for GWR, XC and ScotRail.

 

[humbersidejim]

So are you saying that Mark 3s are not structurally safe? What evidence do you have for that?

DfT (and Transport Scotland) have put their name to continued use by signing off use of HSTs for GWR, XC and ScotRail.

All the evidence suggests they're like Fort Knox compared to a 142.

 

[Mordac]

Remember that they aren't good to remain in service past-2020 without expensive PRM mods. It's that, rather than any considerations about structural integrity, that will lead to their demise I imagine.