Grand National

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Mike395

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I'll be giving it a go as my main once-a-year bet!

Not sure who I'm going to go for yet though :)
 

David

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For me to have a bet, I first off all need a spreadsheet with all the runners listed, a dart board and several darts.

It worked last year when the 3 horses I picked finished 2nd, 3rd and 4th! :lol:
 

Liam

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Have ballabriggs on the works sweep, also put a fiver each way on Seabass and Shackalackaboomboom.
 

Lampshade

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I had beginner's luck in 2008, winning £63.75 from £5 each way on Comply Or Die; won nothing last year or the year before though :(

I've whacked £2.50 each way on According To Pete and Junior.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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And Neptune Collonges wins.
One of the closest ever finishes in a Grand National, as Neptune Collonges who was in third place at The Elbow, suddenly put in a very strong finish, but still looked as if it would not be enough, but the run was timed to perfection by the jockey. The photo finish photograph showed the narrowest of a winning margin.
 

MidnightFlyer

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Synchronised and According to Pete were the two put down - how much more ammo does that give those who want the race banned on cruelty grounds?
 

Oswyntail

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Synchronised and According to Pete were the two put down - how much more ammo does that give those who want the race banned on cruelty grounds?
It is a hard race, but not necessarily cruel. The horses are trained for the effort, and many of the accidents are caused by the high entry. For instance, Synchronised fell quite early on (6th fence?), but had jumped the fence comfortably and in perfect style before being caught by a passing horse. Don't get me wrong - I object to cruelty to animals, and I think the use of the whip other than to prevent accidents should be banned, the excitement of the end of today's race notwithstanding. If we are to stop anything that occasionally results in animals dying accidentally, however, and we would be without trains, roads etc.
 

Temple Meads

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Synchronised and According to Pete were the two put down - how much more ammo does that give those who want the race banned on cruelty grounds?
Rather a lot hopefully.

Oswyntail's last post does make a good point, but we need roads and railways to go about our daily business, the Grand National, and jump racing in general is just a mere sporting event that does not warrant the deaths of 2 magnificent animals today, and countless others beforehand, the wellbeing of the horses needs to be fully taken into consideration before next years race, and all improvements that can be made, must be made.

I'm sure you, or very few others object to the lack of banked circuits in Formula 1, or the rules put into place for boxers safety, even if it impinges on the quality of the action.

It should be the same in horse racing, no doubt others will disagree with me however.
 

MidnightFlyer

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If a horse makes the jump (which falls within standards) yet falls and needs to be put down, whose 'fault' is it? You cannot blame the governing body if a horse makes an error of its own device, surely?
 
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It is a hard race, but not necessarily cruel. The horses are trained for the effort, and many of the accidents are caused by the high entry. For instance, Synchronised fell quite early on (6th fence?), but had jumped the fence comfortably and in perfect style before being caught by a passing horse. Don't get me wrong - I object to cruelty to animals, and I think the use of the whip other than to prevent accidents should be banned, the excitement of the end of today's race notwithstanding. If we are to stop anything that occasionally results in animals dying accidentally, however, and we would be without trains, roads etc.
I absolutely agree with you on this. The "handwringing" by the RSPCA is pretty awful too. It should be remembered, that Bechers Brook is 4 inches shorter this year than last. As far as I'm aware, they were one of the organisations that advised Aintree about the change.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'll be giving it a go as my main once-a-year bet!

Not sure who I'm going to go for yet though :)
I went for Planet Of Sound. Amazingly (for me) the horse finished. As we know, bookies do not pay out for 12th place:lol:!
 

ainsworth74

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If a horse makes the jump (which falls within standards) yet falls and needs to be put down, whose 'fault' is it? You cannot blame the governing body if a horse makes an error of its own device, surely?
I assume that the argument would be that the horse would not be in that position if it were not for the race (though I'd argue that this theoretical horse likely wouldn't exist if it wasn't to race).
 

Michael.Y

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You can make the same arguments for horse racing fatalities that are made for motorcycle racing (Marco Simoncelli, Shoya Tomizawa, Craig Jones) or four-wheel racing (Dan Wheldon, Henry Surtees, Scott Kalitta) or any other sport where death is a possibility - which doesn't rule out a lot except perhaps crown green bowls.

These animals are bred purely for the sport. They have no purpose except to race. They are no different to cows which are bred purely for beef, pigs which are bred purely for pork, or dogs which are bred purely to hunt.

Dispassionately speaking, they are tools of industry.

The only way you make racing safe is to ban it completely. Which would destroy a multi-billion pound industry, remove several sources of income from the economy / exchequer, and end up with a lot more horses being put to sleep unnecessarily.

Facts are that this year has been no worse than any other year apart from 1998, and you have to go back a long way to find a meeting with more than 2 or 3 fatalities - 1954 with the maximum of 4, and that was a race with 29 horses, 11 less than the modern field, over fences that were higher and more brutal than they are now. The point is that no matter what the field size or fence condition, equine death is a reality in this race. You can minimise it, but not eliminate it.
 

Crossover

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Synchronised and According to Pete were the two put down - how much more ammo does that give those who want the race banned on cruelty grounds?
If a horse makes the jump (which falls within standards) yet falls and needs to be put down, whose 'fault' is it? You cannot blame the governing body if a horse makes an error of its own device, surely?
I would hope no-one tries to find any ammo for banning it

At the end of the day, they aren't put down because they fell, but because they have sustained significant injury, such as a broken leg, which they cannot recover from (even if they did, it would take a long time and they would never race again)

Bear in mind that a horse in the wild, if they were to do something similar would end up having a slow and painful death as they can't get food and would also not be able to defend themselves - it is all about survival of the fittest, as with many species. At least in this case, they don't suffer (I am told that initially they won't feel the pain due to adrenaline, and you will often see them try and get back up and continue)

At one time it was done using a shot gun but is now by injection.

You can make the same arguments for horse racing fatalities that are made for motorcycle racing (Marco Simoncelli, Shoya Tomizawa, Craig Jones) or four-wheel racing (Dan Wheldon, Henry Surtees, Scott Kalitta) or any other sport where death is a possibility - which doesn't rule out a lot except perhaps crown green bowls.

These animals are bred purely for the sport. They have no purpose except to race. They are no different to cows which are bred purely for beef, pigs which are bred purely for pork, or dogs which are bred purely to hunt.

Dispassionately speaking, they are tools of industry.

The only way you make racing safe is to ban it completely. Which would destroy a multi-billion pound industry, remove several sources of income from the economy / exchequer, and end up with a lot more horses being put to sleep unnecessarily.

Facts are that this year has been no worse than any other year apart from 1998, and you have to go back a long way to find a meeting with more than 2 or 3 fatalities - 1954 with the maximum of 4, and that was a race with 29 horses, 11 less than the modern field, over fences that were higher and more brutal than they are now. The point is that no matter what the field size or fence condition, equine death is a reality in this race. You can minimise it, but not eliminate it.
I agree with this - in fact, the jockeys themselves are in danger as well, it is a hazard of the job, and is why they wear so much protective equipment (which I won't go into here, but it is significant)

As said above, the industry for this is huge (which was hit a fair bit with the ban on hunts), in more ways than just the cost of equipment etc, but is a livelyhood for a lot of people (think of the owners, trainers, stable hands etc etc) - if you were to try and ban it on safety grounds, you may as well do the same for other competitive sports and let's face it, that isn't going to happen.

The only thing I'm not sure about is your comparison of crown green bowls being not so dangerous...with all the sponsorship for the televised competitions (mainly flat green admittedly) being Bupa or funeral companies, you'd think they were trying to say something :lol: </jest>
 

Temple Meads

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You can make the same arguments for horse racing fatalities that are made for motorcycle racing (Marco Simoncelli, Shoya Tomizawa, Craig Jones) or four-wheel racing (Dan Wheldon, Henry Surtees, Scott Kalitta) or any other sport where death is a possibility - which doesn't rule out a lot except perhaps crown green bowls.
.
Very true, the only difference however, is that racers and other human sportsmen make the decision to take part in their sport, the horses do not have a choice, or indeed the ability or mind able to weigh up the risks etc.
 

Crossover

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Very true, the only difference however, is that racers and other human sportsmen make the decision to take part in their sport, the horses do not have a choice, or indeed the ability or mind able to weigh up the risks etc.
There are many other sports the same.

Anyway, a horse in the wild doesn't necessarily have the ability to weigh up the risks involved there either and may (/probably will) come unstuck sooner or later
 

Michael.Y

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Attaching expectations and pathetic fallacy on behalf of the horses is, forgive me, flogging a dead horse. They do not have the mental capacity to make the kind of decisions or have the kind of reasoned emotional anticipation or reaction to situations. They just know they have to run, and jump, and they literally get steered by the jockey. Look at the loose horses - they run about like they've lost their heads. Which is, technically, what they have done - the jockeys are the brains, the horses the machines.
 

Crossover

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Just watched the race now and indeed, one jockey did suffer bad leg injuries after coming off his horse.

As for those who say the horse is forced to race...look at those who fall, they often carry on without their jockeys (one was leading and getting in the way for a while) as that is their natural instinct, to stay with the pack. They also have the option to run out, which a few of them do.
 
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