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Grand Union Trains Plans to run from London to Cardiff - Now rejected by ORR

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bastien

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No great urgency to get it fixed is there? IETs will just run on diesel mode throughout the tunnel area. Though plans to use 387s as Cardiff event crowd busters would be affected that is hardly a crucial hurdle.
Maybe fewer diesel fumes in the tunnel would ease the 'hostile environment' down there? Bit chicken and egg isn't it?
 
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krus_aragon

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Maybe fewer diesel fumes in the tunnel would ease the 'hostile environment' down there? Bit chicken and egg isn't it?
The ingress of salt water is probably more of an issue for the overhead lines than diesel fumes. We don't see similar diesel problems in above-water tunnels (which is part of the reason NR have been caught out by this).
 

800002

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The ingress of salt water is probably more of an issue for the overhead lines than diesel fumes. We don't see similar diesel problems in above-water tunnels (which is part of the reason NR have been caught out by this).
Begs the question - how many sub-water tunnels are currently electrified?
(excluding the chunnel).

EDIT: apologies for being 'off-topic' thought I was back on the GW electrification thread.
 
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Oscar46016

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Begs the question - how many sub-water tunnels are currently electrified? (excluding the chunnel).

Isn't there one in Liverpool / Birkenhead?

One other point - the Severn isn't entirely salt water at the point of the tunnel - surely it's diluted by the fresh water flowing from the Welsh hills and mountains to the sea?
 

krus_aragon

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One other point - the Severn isn't entirely salt water at the point of the tunnel - surely it's diluted by the fresh water flowing from the Welsh hills and mountains to the sea?

It's also very tidal: surfers can ride the Severn bore seven miles upstream, so there's plenty of sea water getting mixed in too.
 

Clarence Yard

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We covered this elsewhere when the news first broke.

The Severn Tunnel is under a tidal estuary and the atmosphere is very warm and salty, something I can personally testify to. It is a harsh environment for OHL and balise operation for the IET stock is now being actively considered so that the pan can be dropped prior to entry (& back up again on the other side), just in case the fix will take a long time to implement.

This may stop this OA scheme completely as presumably the 91/MkIV combo is needed to grow the business before the 802's arrive, should they actually find any spare paths left to run these trains.
 

800002

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I was thinking - in relation to the proposed stock to be used:-
Where could they call home / be maintained?
Would outstabling, overnight at paddington ever be possible?
 

Cardiff123

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We covered this elsewhere when the news first broke.

The Severn Tunnel is under a tidal estuary and the atmosphere is very warm and salty, something I can personally testify to. It is a harsh environment for OHL and balise operation for the IET stock is now being actively considered so that the pan can be dropped prior to entry (& back up again on the other side), just in case the fix will take a long time to implement.

This may stop this OA scheme completely as presumably the 91/MkIV combo is needed to grow the business before the 802's arrive, should they actually find any spare paths left to run these trains.

What's 'balise operation'?
 

krus_aragon

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What's 'balise operation'?

A balise (in this context) is a device fitted to the sleepers that communicates with trains as they pass. One example is the balises on the WCML that tell Pendolinos and Voyagers when/where it's safe for them to engange their tilt mechanism.

In this instance, they would tell the IEP fleet where to drop and raise their pantographs as they enter and exit the tunnel.
 
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700007

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Near a bunch of sheds that aren't 66s.
A balise (in this context) is a device fitted to the sleepers that communicates with trains as they pass. One example is the balises on the WCML that tell Pendolinos and Voyagers when/where it's safe for them to engange their tilt mechanism.

In this instance, they would tell the IEP fleet where to drop and raise their pantographs as they enter and exit the tunnel.
Is this the same thing that's apparently used on the ThamesLink central section at Farringdon / City ThamesLink to change power?
 

hwl

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Is this the same thing that's apparently used on the ThamesLink central section at Farringdon / City ThamesLink to change power?
Yes, in the TL case they are yellow and about 8" square. also used for ASDO...
 

yorkie

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Just a reminder that this thread is to discuss the actual proposals. If anyone wishes to post something else, please create a new thread (if there isn't one already) or use an existing one (if there is) in an appropriate area of the forum.

For example, suggestions that they should consider using HSTs belong in the Speculative Ideas section and there is a thread for that here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...eir-proposed-service-to-cardiff.186098/unread
 

w1bbl3

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I was thinking - in relation to the proposed stock to be used:-
Where could they call home / be maintained?
Would outstabling, overnight at paddington ever be possible?

The initial timetable would need stabling to be somewhere in Wales to provide stock for the 0635 first service from Cardiff, the pattern finishes with the last service arriving Cardiff 2220, I'd have thought Canton but not sure if any roads are to be electrified and if spare capacity exists to stable three or four sets nightly?
I'd expect the plan is that once 802's arrive maintenance would shift to Hitachi Maliphant, Stoke Gifford & North Pole.

The GWR morning departures start arriving at Paddington from North Pole at 4am and almost all the platforms are occupied by 5am so outstabling stock overnight at Paddington isn't going to be viable. There actually are very few locations to outstable near to Paddington with direct access to GWML outside of Hitachi North Pole now that Old Oak has closed, Southall sidings are probably the largest location without a dedicated user other obvious locations where either paid for by the current user or are on long term leases.
 

800002

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The initial timetable would need stabling to be somewhere in Wales to provide stock for the 0635 first service from Cardiff, the pattern finishes with the last service arriving Cardiff 2220, I'd have thought Canton but not sure if any roads are to be electrified and if spare capacity exists to stable three or four sets nightly?
That's what I was thinking - outstabling / stabling to form 1st service etc.
Canton is getting wired (I believe) for the new Wales metro services which are going electric. But I don't know when this is planned to occur.
My other thought was swansea Landore - but that's not being wired, and would involve running to / from swansea immediately, which isn't their plan. I wouldn't have thought that there would be spare capacity at canton anyway. Although sticking them into the brickyard sidings would be a possibility I suppose. Depending of course on how many units they need to outstable.

I'd expect the plan is that once 802's arrive maintenance would shift to Hitachi Maliphant, Stoke Gifford & North Pole.
Definatly! Simple enough to work out a scale of charges, from hitatchi, I would think.

There actually are very few locations to outstable near to Paddington with direct access to GWML outside of Hitachi North Pole now that Old Oak has closed, Southall sidings are probably the largest location without a dedicated user other obvious locations where either paid for by the current user or are on long term leases.

Is Southall planned for electrification? I never recall hearing anything about it, tbh.
I can only think of Reading as a possible depot - but I would've thought that's a bit optimistic.
It's not even like they could get to wembley / willsden. (which is way out of left field, cos I can't think of anywhere else). Afterall, it's not likely hitatchi would let them into North Pole, is it?

How many sets would be needed? Two at each end, initially, and a fifth somewhere?? Even if it is as little as two, that's a big ask I think, to ask an operator to share with. (I know HT and GC do it at Crofton and Heaton and elsewhere - but there not running hourly services (and thier diesel only, so slightly more flexible).
 

w1bbl3

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That's what I was thinking - outstabling / stabling to form 1st service etc.
Canton is getting wired (I believe) for the new Wales metro services which are going electric. But I don't know when this is planned to occur.

I don't believe that NR are planning to wire Canton as part of the GW works or wire from Central to Canton and TfW are having Taff's Well built for metro services. The units to be based out of Canton are all diesel, bimode or trimode. The metro services between Queen St and Central are proposed for battery operation as neither TfW or NR will pay for wires.

My other thought was swansea Landore - but that's not being wired, and would involve running to / from swansea immediately, which isn't their plan. I wouldn't have thought that there would be spare capacity at canton anyway. Although sticking them into the brickyard sidings would be a possibility I suppose. Depending of course on how many units they need to outstable.

They're going to need access to a CET servicing facility for the retention tanks so putting the sets into a siding for anything other stabling away from the home depot isn't going to work.
Reopening Landore to short term maintain the sets isn't going to be viable, even ignoring that it doesn't have CET servicing capabilities anyway.

Is Southall planned for electrification? I never recall hearing anything about it, tbh.
I can only think of Reading as a possible depot - but I would've thought that's a bit optimistic
Southall would be the only location near to London with direct access to GWML that is long enough to stable a 91 + 9xMK4's + DVT and not an existing depot, it's not electrified so Grand Union will have to pay for that potentially.
Reading is a GWR depot, when the service is basically a revenue abstraction raid on GWR you'd be quite mad to assume access to GWR depots or being able to agree a contract on reasonable terms for train prep with GWR.

It's not even like they could get to wembley / willsden. (which is way out of left field, cos I can't think of anywhere else). Afterall, it's not likely hitatchi would let them into North Pole, is it?

How many sets would be needed? Two at each end, initially, and a fifth somewhere?? Even if it is as little as two, that's a big ask I think, to ask an operator to share with. (I know HT and GC do it at Crofton and Heaton and elsewhere - but there not running hourly services (and thier diesel only, so slightly more flexible).

Depends on how maintenance is addressed and what allowance GU would factor for set unavailability which is two of the Elephants in room over the whole proposal but the initial 2 hourly service only needs two sets in total daily to function and no outstabling both sets would start and finish at Cardiff.
The service described in the OR application would be as per below, last and first departures in bold:
Set 1 CDF d0635 > PAD a0820, d0835 > CDF a1020, d1035 > PAD a1220 d1235 > CDF a1420, d1435 > PAD a1620, d1635 > CDF a1820, d1835 > PAD a2020, d2035 > CDF a2220
Set 2 CDF d0835 > PAD a1020, d1035 > CDF a1220, d1235 > PAD a1420, d1435 > CDF a1620, d1635 > PAD a1820, d1835 > CDF a2020

If you where then take the same pattern of 35 past the hour departures with first and last service times unchanged and increase to an hourly frequency four sets would be needed to cover all of which could be diagrammed to start and finish at Cardiff. Only starting service at Paddington before 8350 would require a set to be stabled overnight in the London area.

The extension to Llanelli option increases the number of sets needed daily to roughly seven and going further to Carmarthen increases to eight. However assuming the last arrival time at Cardiff stays unchanged the service still wouldn't need any units to be stabled in London. However maintenance requirements with Hitatchi would I suspect see the diagrams structured for all the sets to rotate through north pole for OLE related servicing.



If I was guessing then I'd assume GU plan on agreeing a maintenance contract with Hitachi for the 91's + mk4's based on the sets going to Stoke Gifford each night between service start and delivery of 802's if only because Hitachi are the only maintenance provider having electrified depots with access to GWML that are not GWR. ;)
 

pt_mad

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So how long will it likely be for the applicant to receive an answer from the ORR?

Does there need to be consultation with existing operator/s on the route/part of the route?
 

ainsworth74

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So how long will it likely be for the applicant to receive an answer from the ORR?

Months, to be honest probably not until early next year at the earliest I'd have thought.

Does there need to be consultation with existing operator/s on the route/part of the route?

Yes, every operator on the route or that could potentially be affected (and that includes FOCs) as well as Network Rail and the DfT will be consulted.
 

TrainBoy98

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Depends on how maintenance is addressed and what allowance GU would factor for set unavailability which is two of the Elephants in room over the whole proposal but the initial 2 hourly service only needs two sets in total daily to function and no outstabling both sets would start and finish at Cardiff.
The service described in the OR application would be as per below, last and first departures in bold:
Set 1 CDF d0635 > PAD a0820, d0835 > CDF a1020, d1035 > PAD a1220 d1235 > CDF a1420, d1435 > PAD a1620, d1635 > CDF a1820, d1835 > PAD a2020, d2035 > CDF a2220
Set 2 CDF d0835 > PAD a1020, d1035 > CDF a1220, d1235 > PAD a1420, d1435 > CDF a1620, d1635 > PAD a1820, d1835 > CDF a2020

Unless I'm missing something, that's suggesting leaving Paddington only 15minutes after arrival. Isn't that a bit fast for a long-distance turnaround? Are there any other services that achieve this?
 

swt_passenger

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Is Yeowart still claiming that his service will be significantly faster than GWR’s future Cardiff - Paddington IET timings? That must be one of the most suspect points about the original application surely?
 

coppercapped

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Concerning suggestions that the Grand Union trains could stable/be maintained at Reading Train Care Depot. I would suggest that this is highly unlikely for capacity reasons - the sleeper stock is now maintained there since Old Oak Common closed and the 387s used for Heathrow Express are also present as the Siemens depot at Old Oak is also being closed. I appreciate that the latter are part of the main fleet but adding yet more stock to a geographically constrained site seems to me to be asking for trouble.
A possible alternative would be the site of the old triangle yard on or near the site of the old DMU running shed. This would need some construction before it could be used efficiently as a maintenance site, but somewhat less if it were to be used as stabling.
 

swt_passenger

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Haven’t all the previous open access operations of Mr Yeowart’s former company Alliance been able to use depots run by “friendly” associated TOCs?

Could be a completely different ball game if access to a competitor’s depot has to be paid for on a purely commercial basis...
 

swt_passenger

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A possible alternative would be the site of the old triangle yard on or near the site of the old DMU running shed. This would need some construction before it could be used efficiently as a maintenance site, but somewhat less if it were to be used as stabling.
I don’t think the remaining triangle sidings are anywhere near long enough for the proposed stock. Since all the track layout changes the high level site is seriously reduced in overall area. You theoretically could provide a decent sized depot including the whole lower available area as well, if there were no constraints, but IIRC from the rebuild project much of that empty space is designed as flood alleviation, and green space, and GWR’s driver training centre is right in the middle, and in any case the ground levels are all wrong...
 
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coppercapped

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I don’t think the remaining triangle sidings are anywhere near long enough for the proposed stock. Since all the track layout changes the high level site is seriously reduced in overall area. You theoretically could provide a decent sized depot in the available area if there were no constraints, but IIRC from the rebuild project much of that empty space is designed as flood alleviation, and green space, and GWR’s driver training centre is right in the middle, and in any case the ground levels are all wrong...
You're right. As it happens I've just been past them...

...so, we need another solution! Didcot? Moreton cutting? Cocklebury?
HS2 is all well and good - but it's rather mucked up the concept of storing and maintaining trains close to their terminus. :s
 

ainsworth74

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Haven’t all the previous open access operations of Mr Yeowart’s former company Alliance been able to use depots run by “friendly” associated TOCs?

Grand Central started off with Heaton up in Newcastle which was (and is) a Northern depot so at that time Serco-Abellio. Then Crofton once Bradford started up which is a Bombardier depot. I think they make some use of Bounds Green (GNER at the time) down in London but I'm not sure if that's always been the case. I also think they use Ferme Park which would have been First Group at the time with FCC.
 

w1bbl3

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Unless I'm missing something, that's suggesting leaving Paddington only 15minutes after arrival. Isn't that a bit fast for a long-distance turnaround? Are there any other services that achieve this?

GWR plan for 30 minute turnarounds at Paddington which allows time for disembarkation, cleaning, restocking and boarding, in the event of disruption 15 minute turn around can be done but cleaning & restocking doesn't happen. Grand Union from the application appear to be proposing a 15 minute turn around at Cardiff as well. TBH I'm not sure what the thinking is in terms of restocking or cleaning during the day or how disruptions will be handled. I'd have thought much more than 5 minutes of delay on the first service and service would run late until close as the point to point timings are really tight anyway.

The short turnaround time will be driven by platform utilisation at Paddington where leaving a set stabled for 1h 15m between turns isn't going to be acceptable.
 

tiptoptaff

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I think the only way for 15min turnarounds to work, is to layover for the 1hr15, but shunt out, possibly in to Royal Oak, for a chunk of that. Arrive, on board cleaners board, driver changes ends (or driver swap), and out under 10mins after arrival. Drop back in 20-25minutes before departure, allow catering to restock, and call boarding 10minutes prior
 

Oscar46016

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Brickwork Sidings will be electrified and they have in the past stables HSTs @ Rover Way sidings so they could be used - as a last resort I'm not sure if the Freightliner depot is electrified or not...
 

Tomos y Tanc

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More on this from the BBC. It seem the changes have been made at the request of the Welsh Government.

Trains to London: Cardiff to Paddington plan expands
Plans for a new train service between south Wales and London have been expanded to include more stations.

However operator Grand Union Trains revealed services between Cardiff and Paddington will initially run every two hours from 2021 instead of hourly as originally proposed.

Hourly services will start in 2023 and will run to Llanelli, which currently has one train a day to London.

The changes were made following talks with the Welsh Government.

Grand Union said it would create 135 jobs and a south Wales headquarters.

Currently only Great Western Railway (GWR) runs services between Cardiff Central and Paddington.

The revised Grand Union Trains timetable would initially see Cardiff to London services operate every two hours, calling at Newport, Severn Tunnel Junction and Bristol Parkway, also stopping at Cardiff Parkway when it opens.

GWR's current half-hourly services takes just over two hours, but the company has announced that from December, the Cardiff to London service will be fully electric, cutting the journey time to one hour 53 minutes.

It also announced a third hourly service for the busiest times of day that will run non-stop between Bristol Parkway and London Paddington, cutting the journey from Cardiff to London to one hour 42 minutes.

Grand Union Trains, which is bidding for a 10-year licence, previously said the new service would cut about 20 minutes from journey times between Cardiff and London by not stopping at Swindon, Didcot and Reading.

Within two years, the company said services would run hourly, taking in Bridgend, Port Talbot Parkway, Neath, Swansea, Gowerton and Llanelli.

Llanelli is currently linked to London by one train a day in each direction on a GWR service to and from Carmarthen.

Ian Yeowart, Grand Union managing director said the proposal had "widespread support in Wales, particularly from the Welsh Government".

"As a result of our ongoing discussions together, we have been happy to review our initial plans to find the best way to support the government in delivering improved services," he added.
 

stj

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The latest from the BBC sounds like it is a done deal from 2021, every 2 hrs to start with.WAG will be
keen to get it off the ground as it will "tick a box" in the alternatives to the cancelled M4 round Newport.
Maybe they will be contributing for new 800s.
 
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