GrandCentral fares and "simplification"

[yorkie]

GrandCentral have tried to be 'different' - and, in many ways - all credit to them for that - but when it comes to ticketing, it can be a dangerous thing to be 'different' because it can confuse passengers.

I said all along that the supplement was a bad idea, and I am pleased GC learnt from that mistake. I do hope they are being forward-thinking when it comes to the 7th September "simplification", but the early signs are a little worrying.

As I predicted a while back, NXEC are re-naming Savers to London as "Super Off Peak" (see this topic!), this means Business Savers become "Off peak". As discussed in the other topic, they have prepared for this by temporarily renaming Savers as "Supersavers" and Business Savers as "Savers".

Unfortunately, a search for 8th September reveals that GC have not fallen into line with this convention, so you have the crazy situation where the GC "Saver" is equivalent to the Any Permitted "Supersaver". Oh dear.. that is going to cause a LOT of confusion! (See attached files - bear in mind they all include a railcard discount, and let's face it without a railcard walk-on fares are unaffordable for anyone not on business on this route).

If you take the situation of travelling to London and back at peak times, the Saver is valid on all GC services (GC do not run services that require a Standard Open with the exception of the 0804 KGX-SUN), however GC's Saver is NOT. That means with simplification, unless GC change it (if it's not too late), you CAN use an Off Peak ticket on GC's "peak" services but you CAN NOT use a Off Peak GC ticket on GC's service. Simplification? Hardly!

What should GC do?

Well, I can't think of any reason why GC would want to charge more of a premium for the 0804 off KGX compared to their other "peak" services, so I can't see any need for the Saver (Off Peak) to exist.

So my suggestion would be for GC to rename their existing Saver as "Super Off Peak" (to be in line with NXEC) and for their Standard Open to be renamed "Anytime" (which will happen anyway I'm sure). If they do not do this, it will cause a lot of confusion for passengers.

I would also suggest that they offer "Super Off Peak" tickets for journeys wholly north of York. For example, York-Hartlepool is cheaper for a Cheap Day Return on any TOC than for the GC only ticket. I'm not saying the GC only ticket is too expensive - clearly for a Standard Open the price is good - I am just saying that GC should also offer off peak tickets as well.

It is good to see that GC are now (finally!) offering railcard discounts, which certainly simplifies things by bringing them into line with other TOCs.

Finally, GC had previously stated they were not doing advance purchase. It is interesting that their 2-for-1 promotion is, in fact, advance purchase! People expect roughly a 50% discount for advance purchase fares so, while I'm not saying it's a bad deal, it's just not as good as they claim, and without the added advantages that other companies offer with their advance purchase (including railcard discounts, through ticketing beyond the main termini, singles being half the return and being able to buy for 1 person not just 2, 4, etc). GC should - in my opinion - just offer advance purchase tickets and comply with the new simplified rules for advance purchase.

Good luck to GC, I just hope they keep listening and keep improving.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Are they actually offering railcard discounts now then? I was fishing around for tickets north for October and when adding my railcard the network fares went down but the GC fares didn't.

The main point of my post is this. The online booking interface is the same as any other TOC or Trainline so could book either GC tickets or network tickets or NXEC advance tickets. Which meant that GC actually came off looking pretty poor value.

I could get a 1st Off-Peak ticket for £99, the same as the GC only standard return £99, to use on the same train, and the any route standard saver was £45.55 with railcard, £69 without. Are they shooting themselves in the foot here by having significantly more expensive tickets than the any operator tickets, albeit ones they get 100% of the revenue for? If the GC only tickets were comparable to the network ones, people would be more inclined to buy these and GC would receive the full price. The everyday punter would look at the booking screen and think, well why would I buy the GC only ticket, it gives no advantage and is pretty expensive. I'd therefore expect most passengers to be on network tickets, for which they only get x% for.

Another aspect is that I live in Herts on the Great Northern line, so either need to get a train to Stevenage or Kings Cross to get a connection north. I can't buy a "via London" ticket so would need an open return to Kings Cross on top of my Kings Cross-Sunderland and it ends up costing me a lot more if I choose a GC only ticket or not. Obviously that isn't GC's fault that I live away from London, but it affects my decision when buying a ticket. I am absolutely behind GC but I don't think they're offering great value right now...

The NXEC advance fares (displayed side by side on the same screen) stand out as excellent value against the GC tickets. If they sold GC-only advance tickets, and their reliability is getting to the stage of that being sensible, they may have a low and therefore attractive ticket price, but they'd get all the revenue from that ticket so would make more than they must get at present from the ORCATS split of the saver. Then they would still receive the walk-up fares, which are good value if buying for travel on the day, and the splits of anyone else with savers.

Another point, last time I used GC the standard return was £69 I am sure, not the £99 now... and that was leaving on the 1650 supposed "peak" service (the supplement as was appeared to have been waived as I think was sporadically going on then depending on the ticket collector.

I know GC want to provide a "simple, understandable" fare structure but actually I'd much prefer a better value structure of advance fares which offer genuine value, and those which I know GC will get the whole whack of what I pay, which as a GC supporter is what I want to do ideally. Most regular rail users surely understand advance fare structures by now? HT offer some reasonable discounts for advance purchases.

I am very much pro-GC, but as an outsider to the rail industry, I'm just asking from a punter's point of view whether the pricing model they use at present only encourages people to either use NXEC advance tickets or network tickets and GC get little of the revenue from the passengers they do actually carry. Is this the best way forward for them competitively?

What are the GC guys feelings on this?

 

[yorkie]

GC used to charge less for a "Standard" return, but then they introduced a supplement (very, very bad idea and possibly illegal) which, quite rightly, most guards, I am told, refused to collect on principle (good for them, I say!)

GC had to abandon the supplement system, so they changed their fares to be Standard Open and Saver. The GC Standard Open competes with the Business Saver (but this is being renamed Saver from 7 September) while the GC Saver competes with the Saver (which is to become Super Off Peak). If GC are to avoid mass confusion, the GC Saver needs to become Super Off Peak from 7 September.

When they changed the structure they said railcard discounts were available. However it has taken about 2 to 3 months for this to be implemented (their website was silent on this issue).

The only train GC has which is not valid on a Business Saver is the 0804 KGX-SUN, but this is by no means the busiest train so the GC Standard Open needs to be priced competetively against the current Business Saver.

I agree that the value for people like yourself is undermined due to having to get an additional ticket to London. This could be avoided if GC falls into line with other TOCs by introducing "GC and Connections" Advance purchase tickets, for example you can get a Welwyn to Heworth "NXEC and connections" which allows travel on NT/Metro + FCC. If GC do not fall into line in this respect then they will never attract through passengers like that, quite frankly. Which would be a shame.

But, having previously indicated they were not doing AP, it seems they are now (but in a different form - being 2 APs for the price of 1 non-discounted walk-on) so maybe the next step is for them to change their mind and go with AP?

 

[Royston Vasey]

Interesting, cheers Yorkie.

They need to sort the railcard issue out asap because to be honest that may have made the difference between me getting GC and the NX train I ended up booking (1st class both ways ~£70 all in, one ticket Royston to Sunderland). Wasn't aware of "and connections" tickets on other operators, this would be perfect. It's ok to be different but I'm not sure exactly what the business plan right now actually is (and before anyone says it, the York-London ORCATS question has been done to death, thanks)

The 2 for 1 offer is good and pretty refreshing, but of course, when a railcard saver is less than half the standard fare, it's not quite worth it for me. I also tend to travel up on my own, so can't benefit. Being different is fine, but there's nothing wrong with learning from the best practice of other operators either.

Just hope they read this board...!

 

[yorkie]

York-London Off Peak Route Any Permitted = valid on 0822 YRK-KGX and 1650 KGX-YRK

York-London Off Peak Route Grand Central only = NOT valid on 0822 YRK-KGX and 1650 KGX-YRK

Simple apparently!!!:roll:

 

[don24]

I'm planning to do go to York from King's Cross. How much will it cost if I pay onboard with a young persons railcard for a return journey?

0757 KGX and returning on the 1405 from YRK

 

[yorkie]

Sounds like a Saturday outward, so about £38 I think.

 

[don24]

Sounds like a Saturday outward, so about £38 I think.

I had seen this price on their website and thought was an advance purchase ticket. However I was hoping if I do decide to go on saturday, it would be the same price.

Thanks for the quick response

 

[paul1609]

Can somebody explain the rational behind great centrals fares?
Looking to travel to York on the 26th September. The e ticket site is only taking booking up to the 28 August about 3 days ago great.
The on line booking site seems to recomend using nxec services there all a lot cheaper!
For first class I need to pay an extra £5 to be restricted to just 1 train!

 

[Royston Vasey]

Following on from this thread, I thought I'd share with you what looks to be a change of policy by Grand Central.

If you remember previously, the £69 London-Sunderland return ticket appeared to have been hiked to £99, and the website at least did not appear to be offering railcard dicounts.

I was looking for a Xmas trip to Sunderland and found approximately zero advance fares available on NXEC, even being very flexible on dates and times. (Is this TOC or National Rail policy not to offer advance fares since these trains are likely to be busy for Xmas anyway? Or just that they've sold out?) Happily when looking up GC fares for the trip, the Off-Peak return is now back to £69 and railcard discount available too, meaning a very reasonable £45.55 return price.

Is this change of policy or just a glitch when I was looking before? (which was just after the 'simplification' took effect)

 

[theblackwatch]

(Is this TOC or National Rail policy not to offer advance fares since these trains are likely to be busy for Xmas anyway? Or just that they've sold out?)

More likely due to be the fact that NXEC are only open for bookings up to December 12th, excluding December 7th. (Source: NXEC website)

 

[Royston Vasey]

More likely due to be the fact that NXEC are only open for bookings up to December 12th, excluding December 7th. (Source: NXEC website)

AH! D'oh! Thought it was 3 months not 2 and a bit! Fair dos.

But my main point about GC's policy still stands...

 

[djw1981]

IIRC engineering etc id decided at 12 weeks, so timetables (and tickets) released at around 10 weeks IIRC.

 

[yorkie]

GC have Anytime tickets, and Off Peak tickets.

Note that their Off Peak tickets are the equivalent validity to NXEC's Super Off Peak tickets. In other words, an Off Peak Any Permitted is valid on all trains except the 0804 ex-KGX, but an Off Peak Grand Central is only valid on the 1127 ex-KGX and the afternoon/evening runs from Sunderland. Apparently this change is "simpler" and allows passengers to buy "with confidence".

 

[Techniquest]

So if I turn up at Kings Cross and want to go on a GC bash to Sunderland, with a Y-P/16-25 railcard I can get a fare of £45.55? If so, it's possibly FINALLY time I got on a GC set!

 

[Darandio]

So if I turn up at Kings Cross and want to go on a GC bash to Sunderland, with a Y-P/16-25 railcard I can get a fare of £45.55? If so, it's possibly FINALLY time I got on a GC set!

Definetely time you did, especially if you get the set with the FC coach currently in the set replacing a standard with 43123 singing behind you.

 

[Techniquest]

Considering how much I was frothing about it before they started, it is high time I got over there. Who knows, might do this weekend...

 

[yorkie]

Yes - it's about £12 cheaper than a Route Not Darlington (assuming that still exists), and about £20 cheaper than an Any Permitted.

It's actually about the same price as combo Day tickets: KGX-PBO + PBO-YRK + YRK-HPL + HPL-SUN, although you can't use that combination on GC as the train doesn't call at PBO (although you can if you use it in conjunction with a season ticket)