Gravesend - Ashford (Kent)

Status
Not open for further replies.

junglejames

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2010
Messages
2,069
Not sure if this has come up before, anyway, something i came across the other day.
Brought myself said single online (FGWs site). Price £19.50. Journey planner shows route via Ebbsfleet and HS1. When i pick ticket up, it says Route: Any Permitted.
No problems so far you would think.

However when it came to putting the ticket in the machine at Ebbsfleet, the machine never accepted it. Woman took a long look at it, then let me through, but said guard onboard may want to excess it. I questioned why, and she said she wasnt sure it was valid on HS1, and that even from Ebbsfleet, it was more expensive. I assured her it must be, and told her South Eastern are wrong if they are claiming an Any Permitted ticket isnt valid. We checked the ticket machines at Ebbsfleet, and sure enough, South Eastern charge you £1 more from Ebbsfleet to Ashford.
Anyway, guard on the train didnt flinch, and accepted it. A little later I asked him about whether he considered it valid. He said it was a grey area, as South Eastern have told guards they must sell the ticket with route: plus Ebbsfleet, at a cost of £20.50. (Surely that isnt right?)
We had a discussion about the meaning of 'Any Permitted'. He admitted i was right in how I see it (any route permitted by the routeing guide), and that it should be valid, but again reiterated that South Eastern have told them they cant sell the 'Any Permitted' ticket. Therefore they arent sure what SE see as valid and not valid.
However he said nobody should quibble over £1, and so nobody should bad an eyelid at the 'any permitted' ticket, no matter what SE think.
This got us onto a discussion about the complexity of fares. He mentioned how the person who had come up with all South Easterns fares, had been asked to explain them. Apparently he couldnt! He also admitted there were loads of anomalies, just in the SE region, but obviously he wasnt able to devulge said anomalies!

Anyway. Does anyone know what South Easterns stance is on this ticket? Obviously it is valid, but what do SE really think?
Plus, surely telling staff they arent allowed to sell the 'Any Permitted' ticket if the passenger intends to use HS1, is wrong? That is blatantly telling staff they cant sell the cheapest valid ticket.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

All Line Rover

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2011
Messages
5,026
An "Any Permitted" is valid by any permitted route (i.e. those mapped by the Routeing Guide). This is a simple fact, which the existence of higher priced route-specific fares does not change.

There are many anomalies of this sort, and whilst they can raise an awful lot of confusion, your ticket is 100% valid via HS1.
 

OwlMan

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2008
Messages
3,207
Location
Bedworth, Warwickshire
According to SE this ticket is not valid without a supplement - whether that is enforcable in this case is doubtful.

From SE website
High speed ticket details


The following ticket descriptions entitle you to travel on high speed services:

  • PLUS HIGH SPEED – this is shown on either a walk up or supplement ticket.
  • UPGRADE + HS – this is shown on a supplement ticket and must be accompanied by a Southeastern ticket that is not valid on high speed services. Please note Earlybird ticket holders are not eligable for a high speed upgrade.
  • ANY PERMITTED - in the case of long distance through tickets, i.e. destinations beyond St Pancras.
Peter
 
Last edited:

junglejames

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2010
Messages
2,069
An "Any Permitted" is valid by any permitted route (i.e. those mapped by the Routeing Guide). This is a simple fact, which the existence of higher priced route-specific fares does not change.

There are many anomalies of this sort, and whilst they can raise an awful lot of confusion, your ticket is 100% valid via HS1.

Oh i know its valid. Just an odd one, and surely SE are wrong, telling staff not to sell it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've never travelled from or changed trains at Ebbsfleet so may I ask why you had to use the barrier there ? Starting from Gravesend I would have expected it to be a cross platform connection,

Ebbsfleet is like 2 stations. Trains to/ from Faversham call at one part of it, and those to/ from Ashford call at the lower section. You have to leave one part, head outside, and head over to the other part of the station. Both parts have their own barriers, as they are quite seperate. Think the distance between Kings Cross and St Pancras.
 

junglejames

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2010
Messages
2,069
According to SE this ticket is not valid without a supplement


This is supposedly how SE see things, but it isnt correct. Any permitted means exactly that. Any route permitted by the routeing guide. As the shortest possible route is via HS1, then HS1 is a valid route on Any Permitted tickets.
Also, if a ticket isnt valid via a specific route, then this has to be clearly marked on the ticket. ie 'Not HS1'. Or if it is only valid via one route, then this has to be clearly marked. Ie Chilterns tickets to Brum which are 'Route: High Wycombe'.

If SE dont want these 'Any Permitted tickets at £19.50 to be valid via HS1, then they will have to rename the cheaper tickets 'Route: Not HS1'. They could then rename the more expensive tickets- 'Route: Any Permitted' if they so wanted.


Referring to your copy from the SE website. Again, this is how SE see it, but it isnt correct. SE will need to rename the tickets if they dont want it to be valid. Its just like Southern Only tickets. Southern dont want them to be valid on GatEx. But as it is, they cant stop you using them on GatEx.
SE have a set of rules (beliefs) here which they cant actually enforce, because of the meaning of the term 'Any Permitted'.
 
Last edited:

All Line Rover

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2011
Messages
5,026
According to SE this ticket is not valid without a supplement



I would dispute that. It doesn't appear as part of the contract and is not found anywhere expect in the "secret" Manual and on SE's website. It isn't acceptable to enforce a "rule" that is so well hidden.

A direct and sensible interpretation of the NRCoC and the Routeing Guide concludes that the ticket is valid via HS1. If SE are not happy about this they should add a clause to the NRCoC and/or Routeing Guide saying that exceptions apply to journeys on HS1.
 

junglejames

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2010
Messages
2,069
Thanks for clarifying that. I travel through Ebbsfleet at least twice a week and never realised the Ashford services use a different line to my train from or to Medway.

I never realised how seperate the platforms were until I changed there the other day. Again, despite travelling through there quite frequently like yourself.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would dispute that. It doesn't appear as part of the contract and is not found anywhere expect in the "secret" Manual and on SE's website. It isn't acceptable to enforce a "rule" that is so well hidden.

A direct and sensible interpretation of the NRCoC and the Routeing Guide concludes that the ticket is valid via HS1. If SE are not happy about this they should add a clause to the NRCoC and/or Routeing Guide saying that exceptions apply to journeys on HS1.

Surely adding a clause or something would still be hidden too much to be fair?
SE should rename the tickets if they dont like it. ie rename the any permitted ticket, so that it reads 'Not HS1', or whatever non HS tickets read.
 

blakey1152

Member
Joined
5 Sep 2011
Messages
341
Last year, I made a similar trip using split tickets and my family and friends railcard.

I used Slade Green to Gravesend and Gravesend to Ashford International - This saved me about £10 or so! (off peak day returns)

And like yourself I found that the tickets were not accepted at any of the barriers at Ebbsfleet although I had no issue whatsoever when showing the ticket at the barrier or with the guard on the train.

However, it might be worth taking a print out of the itinerary as mine clearly stated to travel from Gravesend to Ebbsfleet then Ebbsfleet to Ashford!

Blakey
 

junglejames

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2010
Messages
2,069
Last year, I made a similar trip using split tickets and my family and friends railcard.

I used Slade Green to Gravesend and Gravesend to Ashford International - This saved me about £10 or so! (off peak day returns)

And like yourself I found that the tickets were not accepted at any of the barriers at Ebbsfleet although I had no issue whatsoever when showing the ticket at the barrier or with the guard on the train.

However, it might be worth taking a print out of the itinerary as mine clearly stated to travel from Gravesend to Ebbsfleet then Ebbsfleet to Ashford!

Blakey


Oh you are right, a print out is wise. However I wouldnt. Just because i refuse to take a print out for something that is blatantly valid. Its unlikely i shall ever need to do said journey with that ticket again anyway.
I only used it to get me home after spending all day with the Kent Rover. Finished my day on the 2132 from Sheerness, and this was the only way of getting back to Ashford that late.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
50,819
Location
Yorkshire
The ticket is routed Any Permitted, that includes the shortest route, irrespective of mapped routes, so I am not going to even look at mapped routes as via Ebbsfleet is the shortest route.

SET are wrong, which is hardly a surprise. SET can "throw a wobbly" over people using their "shiny new trains" if they want, but it's entirely valid.
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
11,326
Location
0036
Given that the flow has routes EBSFLET+HSNOTLON and NOT VALID ON HS1, it seems a little daft to also have ANY PERMITTED. But I agree with yorkie that an ANY PERMITTED ticket is valid on the shortest route, irrespective of SET's publicity.
 

junglejames

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2010
Messages
2,069
The ticket is routed Any Permitted, that includes the shortest route, irrespective of mapped routes, so I am not going to even look at mapped routes as via Ebbsfleet is the shortest route.

SET are wrong, which is hardly a surprise. SET can "throw a wobbly" over people using their "shiny new trains" if they want, but it's entirely valid.

Exactly as i saw it. Both the woman at Ebbsfleet and the guard tried to explain how SE saw the term 'Any Permitted'. Apparently it means any reasonable route, or something like that, and SE dont see that as meaning HS1 (id love to know how it doesnt). Needless to say, SE seem to have tried their hardest to make a confusing excuse for not allowing it, but at the end of the day, it has to be valid. It is a simple case of 'any route allowed by the routeing guide, and, as Yorkie so nicely puts it, the first thing mentioned is the shortest route, or one within 3 miles of it. SE cant change the meaning of 'Any Permitted'.

I am actually tempted to buy this ticket again, and try it once more, just to see what is said, if anything.
I dont think any guards will ever say anything. Its whether the staff at Ebbsfleet say anything when the barriers reject it.
I may even try buying the ticket at Gravesend, and see what is said when i insist on the Any Permitted ticket.
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,864
I have a feeling that SET just messed up. There are a number of flows in a similar situation.
 

junglejames

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2010
Messages
2,069
I have a feeling that SET just messed up. There are a number of flows in a similar situation.

SET have messed up full stop.
They are expensive. Fares are far too complicated, no matter what route you are on, and HS services have led to virtually all classic services being slowed down. The only stations to really benefit are those East of Ashford, say to Dover and Ramsgate/ Margate. Frequencies have doubled, and the 395 services are usually very quick. No supplement either.
However go from Ashford to London, and the classic services have slowed down by about 15mins.

I try not to complain too much, because the introduction of HS services has led to my local station now getting 2 trains per hour, whereas only a few years back, it was peak time services only, with the threat of that reducing even further. In fact it was only really Folkestone Racecourse that kept it open.
But overall, services are poor, and prices too expensive.
 

junglejames

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2010
Messages
2,069
When you say this, do you mean no "PLUS HIGH SPEED" supplement is paid for using HS1 from stations east of Ashford? I think you'll find there is!

No what I mean is there is no supplement for using HS services on the classic network. ie Ashford to Ramsgate. Sorry if it wasnt clear.

Also by rights, the supplement is only meant to be for the HS1 section. But the last time i checked, journeys such as Dover to St Pancras had a higer supplement than Ashford to London. Which it shouldnt do really. Supplemets should all be the same.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
50,819
Location
Yorkshire
No what I mean is there is no supplement for using HS services on the classic network. ie Ashford to Ramsgate. Sorry if it wasnt clear.
The HS1 supplement should only applicable to tickets routed "Not HS1" and is in lieu of a change of route excess. The classic network is not part of HS1 so no excess applies.

For example if I use a York to Middlesbrough "Not via Darlington", I can take any train from York to Northallerton on such a ticket, including a train that continues to Darlington, and would only need to pay the excess to go via Darlington if I remained on that train between Northallerton and Darlington.

It's a geographical route description and a geographical route supplement in lieu of an excess (because excess fares are a bit of a faff and a lot would need to be issued).
Also by rights, the supplement is only meant to be for the HS1 section. But the last time i checked, journeys such as Dover to St Pancras had a higer supplement than Ashford to London. Which it shouldnt do really. Supplemets should all be the same.
The supplements are all the same, aren't they?
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,864
I think the upgrade supplements are the same. They are £5.30, £9.80 and £5 for the three categories AFAIK.
 

Cletus

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2010
Messages
1,913
Location
Dover
The only stations to really benefit are those East of Ashford, say to Dover and Ramsgate/ Margate. Frequencies have doubled, and the 395 services are usually very quick.

I don't think that frequencies have doubled. On the Ashford route before HS1 there was 1 'fast' and 1 'slow' service from Dover Priory via Ashford to Charing Cross.
Now there is 1 'slow' and 1 HS1 service.
 

bocadillo

Member
Joined
10 May 2012
Messages
5
I don't think that frequencies have doubled. On the Ashford route before HS1 there was 1 'fast' and 1 'slow' service from Dover Priory via Ashford to Charing Cross.
Now there is 1 'slow' and 1 HS1 service.


Saturday services at stations between Dover Priory and Ramsgate, viz Martin Mill, Walmer, Deal and Sandwich, have been halved. Now one train an hour instead of two.

From Sandwich, we used to be able to reach Charing Cross in 1hr 57min. Now it takes 2hr 20 min. We can of course change to HS at Dover or Ashford and arrive at St Pancras in 1hr 49 min but that can cost up to £15.20 more for the return journey.

That's £15.20 to get to London 8 minutes quicker than before HS was introduced. Please don't allow anybody to let you believe that there is any real benefit for travellers from east of Ashford.
 

Temple

Established Member
Joined
3 Jun 2012
Messages
1,355
Location
London
Myself as well, as a regular traveler, was unaware of the distance between the platforms and actually quite surprised initially. I'd seen footage of the platforms at Ebbsfleet, then one day when I got off at Ebbsfleet from a service from Medway/Faversham I initially thought it was the wrong place as I didn't recognise it.

For those unaware of the layout, I've attached a picture to show the separation.


What's hard to see is that the line to Medway/Faversham (red arrow), is raised above the ground on an embankment, whilst the line to Ashford (blue arrow), is almost sunken into the ground.

This image helps you to notice the elevation difference. http://www.constructionphotography...._Jan_2008_The_aerial_view_shows_some_of_t.jpg
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top