Grayling Announces Push for Electric Vehicles & Home Charging Points.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Envoy, 9 Jul 2018.

  1. Groningen

    Groningen Established Member

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    Lets hope that (as in the Netherlands) that there is enough electricity from wind, sun or what ever. Also hoping that the wires can transport the juice and that there is no blackout. Here there is a discussion not to load electric cars with electricity when there is a high demand for other things. You see those cars constantly connected to a loading point. (As you can see at Barkmolenstraat 88 in Groningen, NL). The success of the electric car is only, because our government pays part of the bill with a subsidy. No subsidy than we go for petrol or diesel.
     
  2. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    It's much easier to select 75% of your shopping at the click of a button (since typically most of the "staples" are the same, week to week) and then spend ten minutes selecting the remaining 25% of your basket (whilst sat on the sofa, half watching the telly) rather than dealing with the hassle of the supermarket.

    We buy significantly less since we only put the stuff in our (virtual) basket that we want - we're not distracted by the various 3-for-2 offers (and whatnot), we save a lot of time - we don't have to deal with other people's screaming kids - we don't have to take screaming kids round (and subject them to a horrible time in a supermarket when they can't be trusted not to run off, and you have to end up bribing them with some expensive "treat").

    You don't have to worry about lugging the bulky items into your car, you don't have to worry about the size of your boot, you can order bulk purchases (so that you only need to pop to your local convenience store for eggs/ bread/ milk in between a fortnightly shop).

    All that convenience for a quid or so (we typically have a late evening delivery)... it amazes me that so many people still do wander the aisles. Online delivery isn't for everyone, sure, some people have a lot more leisure time to waste, but it's a big improvement - and (to try to get back on topic) means that people don't need a car for their groceries - if we could convince more people to give up cars for their daily commute then it becomes horrendously expensive to keep a car for those irregular days out to National Trust properties with long drives.

    Agreed.

    Futureproofed houses.

    Yes - that's exactly why it's been cancelled.

    If you take twice as long to electrify half of the GWML at twice the original price then you can't be surprised if the people paying for it get cold feet about other projects (after deferring things like wiring to Bristol/ Oxford until later).

    Even as a railway enthusiast who wants his local lines wired ASAP (and has never voted Tory), I can understand why Grayling decided to rein in the spending.

    The problem lies with "the railway", not with the politicians.

    Agreed - much more efficient - one modern van can travel round the suburbs, rather than twenty old cars all heading to the supermarket (and needing parking spaces etc provided whilst there).
     
  3. Harpers Tate

    Harpers Tate Established Member

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    esp. if it's electric.
     
  4. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

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    Where we live, we are fortunate to have quite a number of National Trust properties (three having deer parks...Tatton Park, Dunham Massey and Lyme Park) and the iconic Quarry Bank Mill with its industrial heritage history. I wonder why you use the word "irregular" in your quote, as we used to make three or four visits per week to those local to us.
     
  5. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

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    The energy/distance/availability profile of supermarket delivery vans on the face of it seems quite appropriate for battery powering. They can be charged overnight off-road in the supermarket loading areas where industrial power supplies are available. Strangely, not unlike an earlier age when that's exactly what happened with the far lower ranges of battery milk floats and baker's delivery vans. I'm sure that many of us baby boomers can remember the quiet whine of the milkman's vehicle's DC motors followed by the chink of milk bottles whilst pondering whether to get out of bed.
     
  6. Western Lord

    Western Lord Member

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    Whine of electric motors? I'm old enough to remember the clip clop of the horse pulling the float!
     
  7. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

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    New houses have to provide long term cycle parking spaces (normally sheds or garages of a minimum size, typically 3m X 6m internally).

    Loads of London flats have to provide a percentage of their car parking with electric charging points and then passive provission to double that number. That's been the case for a few years now, other areas are short on the uptake.
     
  8. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

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    I think that I'm one of the others who also cause for more people to reduce their reliance on cars.

    That said, I'm not so blind to the fact that there's going to be a lot of cars for a long time as things stand.

    It's a bit of a chicken/egg thing in that people won't give up their cars easily without an alternative but there's not an alternative as people aren't willing to use them at they would rather use their cars.
     
  9. gordonthemoron

    gordonthemoron Established Member

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    new houses need to be built with solar panels and power walls to charge these cars
     
  10. Lucan

    Lucan Member

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    My mother always did.
    That is a rosy view. Living near Hereford, we once ordered a home delivery from Tescos. Conversationally, Mrs Lucan asked the driver where he had driven from : he said from London ! I could tell more stories about delivery distances from within a wholesale company I was once associated with. There are lorry-loads and van-loads being driven all over the place unnecessarily, from warehouse to warehouse, up the country and back again, according to arcane market bidding behind the scenes. They don't worry about the pollution.
    Never given it a thought; made sure I have a big enough car for all sorts of reasons.
    Perhaps because we wish to examine for example "best before" dates and the quality of the stuff. Makes no difference with a can of beans, but we don't just live on those. Any logical home delivery scheme will send out the stuff with the shortest best-before date; but we pick food according to what day in the next week we are going to eat it - ie a short date is OK if we are going to eat it shortly, otherwise it needs to last up to a week.
    ????? What has that got to do with on-line shopping? Anyway, we stock up with bargains while on offer - better effective interest rate than in a building society. We don't stuff ourselves with it all that very night as you seem to assume; we eat it as and when we would have eaten it anyway. At the moment we have about 20 tins of canned pears due to an offer; probably won't need to buy canned pears again for some while, but when we are down to the last 2 or 3 Mrs L will begin to look out for a new offer before re-stocking. Tescos must hate us, and it sounds like you are subsidising us :)
     
  11. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    You are talking about non-grocery shopping which is a different kettle of fish. Tesco have just scrapped that service but continues to offer grocery shopping delivery which normally comes from somewhere much more local. In my area, they used to deliver from the nearest Tesco Extra superstore, about a mile away, but now comes from a dedicated delivery centre about 3 miles away.

    Non-grocery delivery is more questionable from a traffic point of view. The issue has become quite serious in London to the point that TfL have banned its employees from getting online deliveries sent to their offices.
     
  12. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Problem is that a lot of people end up buying much bigger cars than 90% of their journeys require just for the sake of a handful of journeys when they need to buy big/ bulky purchases - which means they end up using a lot more fuel for the school run/ daily commute just so they can have a big enough car to do a "big shop" with.

    Any logical home delivery scheme that wants repeat business will *not* send out the stuff with the shortest best-before date - you might be able to pull that trick as a one-off but the supermarkets need to rely on repeat business and doing what you suggest wouldn't work for them - as someone who does use (semi)regular online deliveries, I can assure you that they don't dump the blackest bananas into the delivery vans.

    If you do an online delivery, you only search for the things that you are looking for.

    If you go into the shop then you find that the essentials (bread, milk, eggs etc) are conveniently located far from each other so that you have to walk through/past lots of shelving to do your basic shop, meaning the supermarket make you pass various end-aisle offers for impulse purchases that you hadn't necessarily intended to buy - the "three for two" on biscuits might look cheap but you don't fall for those kind of "deals" online. People walking round the shops end up subsidising those sat at home - which is nice of them.

    Plus you aren't spending money on bribing children with treats to keep them quiet or tempted to order more because you are hungry as you go round. Much cheaper in the long run, and no need to hoard tinned goods in a fall-out shelter.
     
  13. GusB

    GusB Established Member

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    As a household that no longer has a car, we rely on supermarket deliveries. Here, we're able to choose between Asda, Sainsbury's and Tesco. ASDA was always the store of choice when we had a car, and that has more or less continued. Asda and Tesco dispatch goods from our local stores, but Sainsbury's stuff comes from Nairn, which is somewhat further away. What surprised me was that our local Asda actually does the deliveries for the Inverness area, despite there being a store located there.
    We did have an issue with short-dated goods, and particularly with bread. When I'm in a supermarket, I'll always go for the stuff that was delivered that day if possible, but online shoppers don't have that choice. At least when you're buying short-dated stuff instore, it's usually carries a suitable price reduction. We buy bread locally now, and although it's a bit more expensive, at least we're supporting smaller, local bakeries rather than the likes of Warburtons and British Bakeries.
    In all fairness, they've recognised that there's an issue and the delivery note now advises of any short-dated items. Our delivery drivers are good at pointing this out, as well as offering an on-the-spot refund if you don't wish to accept the item concerned.
     
  14. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

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    We find that the best thing to do is to have a mix of online delivery and actual shopping.

    In doing so we aren't reliant on long dates on fresh produce, however I can pick up a few things on my walk home from work (alternatively my wife will get them in the car on her way from work as it's not practical for her to use public transport to get to her job) without having to carry too much. With many of the heavy and bulky products (tins, drinks, potatos, toilet rolls, and the like) all being delivered to our door. Most of the top up items are meat and vegetables which we tend to only want in small quantities.

    Some online shopping delivery companies have year delivery passes which can work out good value compared to paying for each delivery slot.

    I live somewhere where the logistics supermarket is too small for the area it serves, as such there's a LOT of online shopping done and the local supermarket (which can be very variable in what it stocks) is used as convenience store by most people. As it's not very good as a supermarket.
     
  15. Lucan

    Lucan Member

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    Leaving aside the issue of carrying big non-groceries, which I find I am always doing (fence posts today), Mrs L gets the weekly groceries into her small Fiat Panda with enough room left for another two weeks worth if it was wanted. Grocery shopping capacity is a non-issue unless you have something like a (so-called) " Smart Car".
    So ..... They dump the stuff?
    I do a lot of on-line shopping, just not groceries, and that is not what I find. I am bombarded with nagging and pop-ups etc like "People who looked at that also looked at xyz!" or "You may also be interested in zyx!". Whether that influences you depends on your personality; I am totally not an impulsive person myself; YMMV.
     
  16. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

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    It saddens me to see forum members following the retail consortia online aspiration to deliberately reduce the retail employment opportunities of people that are employed in retail stores.
     
  17. Lucan

    Lucan Member

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    It saddens me too, that and the demise of the high street. I prefer to see things before I buy. But I just cannot find a lot of the things I want in the high street (or back street or industrial estate) any more, you could say that train has already left.

    I buy a lot of DiY and hobby hardware stuff (like tools, timber, metal and electronics). When I started making electronics as a teenager I bought components from an independent shop just a mile away, and there were other such shops around, all within a bike ride. In later years these shops disappeared but at least there were Tandy and Maplin, though furher to go and more interested in selling RC toys than components. But even those shops have now gone and I can only find that stuff I want on-line.
     
  18. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    I do find this forum is a world away from real life at times. Whilst there are people living in cities for whom not having a car is a comparatively viable option, outside of such areas the car is very much regarded as an essential part of daily life, and as was very well put upthread it’s not going to be un-invented. In many rural areas people have come to be totally reliant on a car-based way of life, and that simply isn’t going to change.

    Personally I do think some people are a little over-wedded to their cars, and at times I wish the car hadn’t taken over life to the extent it has. I don’t do a massive mileage each year, and I do enjoy travelling by train where feasible (although less so as trains have become more crowded in recent years), and I do enjoy walking at times, but there are plenty of occasions when there is no realistic alternative to using the car in order to make a particular journey. Designing estates without parking isn’t going to change that.
     
  19. Dentonian

    Dentonian Established Member

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    If people are not going to give their car up - and you are right - then isn't it time we stopped trying to persuade them, and instead give people the freedom and choice not to have a car in the first place? Remember, car ownership (in terms of households) in the UK is 75%, not 100% as politicians and the Media would have us all believe.
     
  20. Dentonian

    Dentonian Established Member

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    Wow - your "local" supermarket must be some distance away, if it costs way more than £1 to get there and back.

    I don't think it was Paul's generation specifically that created the boom in car ownership. It has been going on for 60+ years, albeit I assume it spiked in 1986/7 at least in suburban areas way beyond the M25
     
  21. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    There is high car ownership in all industrialised nations.
     
  22. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    My impression is the baby boom generation are perhaps the most wedded to cars as the default way of getting around. I know plenty of people in that age range who will drive even a couple of hundred yards down the road and look at you like you’re completely mad at the suggestion that it’s actually less hassle just to walk than messing around with the car.

    However I’ve sensed a subtle change in the last decade, from younger people at least. More ownership of cars but less actual use - thus clogging up residential streets with parked cars that don’t shift that often.
     
  23. Lucan

    Lucan Member

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    In rural areas such as I am in, market towns are typically 10-15 miles apart. That is because historically it allowed someone in the worst case (halfway between two of them) to walk to market and back in a day comfortably. Yes, comfortably - people once routinely walked distances unimaginable to modern minds. I live 8 miles from towns in either direction and a return journey costs me £1.50 in vehicle excise duty alone, proportioned, and I suppose about £2.50 directly in fuel.
    I have read that ownership among younger people is also down, partly because of the stinging insurance rates. I don't know why VED is not higher for people who keep their cars on the road - for years now people have been bricking up their garages and driveways to make granny annexes, playrooms etc and leaving the car in the road (or on the pavement - a further discouragement to walking). Keeping a car on the road all the time must be one of the cheapest ways of renting space in cities.

    Regarding earlier suggestions that home deliveries would reduce congestion in cities. That would not happen in Bristol - the city I know best in recent years. Every residential road (except in the leafy outermost suburbs) is permanetly lined with parked cars, so delivery vans just stop in the middle of the road, blocking everything.
     
  24. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

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    Clearly there a balance to be had between those in more rural locations (which actually is a fairly small number of the whole population) who couldn't survive without a car and those in urban areas who could, at the very least, reduce their use of their car.

    There's been a change in the last 5-10 years where parking in residential areas had been relaxed, however the parking standards are still very restrictive for other land uses.

    This change allows cars to be parked easily at home but not so much elsewhere, especially at locations of employment, so as to discourage car use for commuting where it is generally easiest to use an alternative method of travel (in that you aren't reliant on finding out how to do so for every journey).

    Yes there's a long way to go before more people are able to give up their cars (and clearly railways are part of that, as is a lot of other measures). However we've also passed a point where there's a lot of people who could give up their cars (or reducing the number of cars that they own, or becoming more reliant on using car club cars when they need to), but because they haven't thought about doing so they carry on doing what they have been doing.

    For those who do still need a car then being able to opt for an electric one which is easy to charge at home is a good step.
     
  25. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

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    Just because a lot of people do something it doesn't mean that is a good thing to do.

    In fact it should be possible to have a low level of car ownership (although still a fairly high number of cars) by having a good mix of travel options.
     
  26. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Lyme Park has a shuttle bus to and from the entrance.
     
  27. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    That's the fault of idiot Councils who specified one parking space per house in an utterly futile attempt to make people own fewer cars, which anyone could see would never work.
     
  28. whhistle

    whhistle Established Member

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    As someone else pointed out, adding all the costs together (if the trip takes me an hour, that's like working for £1 an hour), it's very quickly not becoming worth it.
    But I understand where you're coming from.
     
  29. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

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    It depends on how you cost your milage (and if you even have a car).

    Based on just the fuel costs it could be quite some distance.

    However if you own a second car which would only be used for local journeys then the cost of that car (if mostly justified by your need for a car for supermarket shopping) then the cost of owning and running that car would be significant and so paying £10 a week for online shopping delivery would be very good value (even if you had to pay £30 a week in taxi charges to cover some of your other travel requirements - circa £2,000 per year).
     
  30. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    In wealthy countries, most people can easily afford a car so most people who want a car will get one. The key is to keep that car at home as much as possible.
     

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