Grayrigg Charges

Discussion in 'Infrastructure & Stations' started by YorkshireBear, 1 Nov 2011.

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  1. YorkshireBear

    YorkshireBear Established Member

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  3. 9K43

    9K43 Member

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    As usual bully boy tactics are the new form of management on nearly all TOCs FOCs.
    When the crap hits the fan these managers insulate themselves from the situation to absolve themselves of any blame.
    You might be able to delete an email from you PC, but the truth still remains hidden on your server.
    When doing safety critical inspections, all telephones and other communication systems should be switched off.
    You are either inspecting or answering calls.
    When you have done your inspections properly, switch on again.
    You decide how long it takes to do your job safely, never mind the bully boy manager trying to bully to look the other way.
     
  4. bluenoxid

    bluenoxid Established Member

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    But you are the reason for the cost of 100 minutes of train delays because your inspection over ran.

    It is more likely that the engineer will form part of the prosecution to a corporate manslughter or HSWA case against Network Rail. We are talking a corporate culture here.
     
  5. YorkshireBear

    YorkshireBear Established Member

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    thats what i couldnt find out whether it would be charges against him, or network rail.
     
  6. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    Didn't BR have some equipment that allowed track inspections to take place while trains are running? ie. something that would warn staff when the train was approaching so they could clear the tracks.
     
  7. callum112233

    callum112233 Member

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    Don't network rail also have devices that can be set up so that when a train approaches an alarm will sound?

    There was a breif update on the inquiry on north west tonight earlier on. It said that the network rail engineer who inspected the track was finding the job stressful and I quote, he said the job was 'like spinning plates on sticks'.

    (p.s. I can't help but notice the spelling mistake on the thread title)
     
  8. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Corrected. I thought it looked odd. :D
     
  9. rail-britain

    rail-britain Established Member

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    Yes, these alarms are fitted on the ECML between Dunbar and Morpeth, you can see the speaker housings mounted to the catenary poles
    They used to use them quite a lot when the IC225 were new, great in a HST
     
  10. michael769

    michael769 Established Member

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    I do hope so. There have been far to many incidents involving faulty points, which in the light of what happened at Potters bar is quite simply chilling. Network Rail need to be shown that they will not be permitted to continue to show such an irresponsible attitude to maintaining a critical safety component of the railway, and it is clear that advice from the RAIB and improvement notices from the ORR are ineffectual in changing their behaviour.
     
  11. Wyvern

    Wyvern Established Member

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    This is an inquest. Charges if any are not part of its remit which may follow later.
     
  12. The Informer

    The Informer Member

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    Please enlighten us all to these many incidents.

    And when it comes to irresponsible attitudes to maintaining critical safety components, then what do you think this place is for....

    The chilling part of it is the millions of pounds they throw at it to get it right!

    IMG00321-20101018-0917.jpg
     
  13. michael769

    michael769 Established Member

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    Potters Bar, Exhibition Centre Station, Duddeston, Greyrigg, Edinburgh(based on the preliminary RAIB findings, so may change). I ran out of time for checking the reports so there may well be more.

    That's an average rate of 1 every 2 years! Given the potential for awful fatalities as demonstrated by Potters Bar, that rate is IMO too high.

    All of which counts for nothing if inspection and maintenance staff do not have the resources to implement the findings of such apparatus in the real world.

    I have no real world experience of what is going on inside the maintenance industry, but I can see the consequences in the incidents that occur.
     
    Last edited: 2 Nov 2011
  14. DaveNewcastle

    DaveNewcastle Established Member Fares Advisor

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    I think you are referring to Train Operated Warning System (TOWS) which is in use today. These cause sirens alongside the track to sound when track circuits are 'occupied'. There are both permanent installations (in areas where curvature or other feature makes adequate sighting of approaching vehicles impossible) and removable installations (where the wiring remains in place but the sirens can be removed).

    There are more advanced portable systems available now, which use radio data transmission to communicate the detection of a train to portable sounders in a worksite.
     
  15. YorkshireBear

    YorkshireBear Established Member

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    Sorry i thought i had checked it....
     
  16. Hydro

    Hydro Established Member

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    These are Lookout Operated Warning Systems, or LOWS. They are fairly unreliable and don't tend to be used much.

    Network Rail responsible for Potters Bar? Give over, the culture of Railtrack died with it. NR inherited RT's corporate liability for Potters Bar, it never caused it. NR's corporate culture leaves a lot to be desired but great strides have been made on an Engineering footing to improve standards and accountability. It's not perfect, as has been shown, but management and understanding of the asset condition of the railway has come on leaps and bounds.
     
  17. GB

    GB Established Member

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    Its all well and good saying 1 is too high and yes, in a perfect world you would have 0 accidents, 0 fatalities and 0 derailments etc etc but we dont live in such a world.

    Given the amount of points on the network and the level of services operated I would have said an "incident" once every two years was actually pretty good!

    The lack of available time to do proper maintenance due to service levels doesnt help matters either.
     
    Last edited: 2 Nov 2011
  18. Ploughman

    Ploughman Established Member

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    Also this one
    http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/110124_R012011_Washwood_Heath.pdf
     
  19. GB

    GB Established Member

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    That (as far as I can see) has nothing to do with dodgy points though.
     
  20. The Informer

    The Informer Member

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    Funny, i was thinking the same!
     
  21. Ploughman

    Ploughman Established Member

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    NO but who did all the planning and execution of the work?
    That wonderful, infallible, safety concious, never does anything wrong authority that runs the network.
     
  22. dviner

    dviner Member

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    Wasn't that the one that was caused by the Safe System of Work NOT being followed?
     
  23. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

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    The issue here is one of performance versus maintenance/safety, not helped at all by the attitude of the TOCs/FOCs and their unwillingness, or perhaps inability, to see the bigger picture in their continuing rush towards this 24 hour Railway that I personally think no-one really wants or can afford. After all how many people are going to be travelling in the early hours of a Sunday morning that are not coming home from nights out and probably not the best for it as well and bringing with that the resultant issues that occur ?

    There is no system in the world that I know that does NOT have to shut down for at least 4 hours a night for maintenance and for longer for renewals.

    It is all very well and good having systems and procedures in place however suitable and sufficient access remains within the gift of the organisation and not the men at the sharp end.

    Add to that a culture (still prevelent) where performance will always be seen to win out - when was the last time someone willingly agreed an over-run to complete work ?

    Whenever problems occur during any Possession there is always massive pressure from above, with the well shielded but ever present threat to the future work security of those involved and as well as their employing Company, for then work to be completed within the time. There is no consideration as to how this can be achieved simply a series of increasingly senior figures demanding the track be handed back.

    This iniquitous pressure is passed down to the men on the ground, who are then placed into situations whereby they feel they have no alternative to cut corners, especially when Nelsonian blind eyes are passed by the very senior management who should be making the hard decisions and stopping this. They will not because they know that their futures are at stake every bit as much as the men yet proper safety management can only be achieved by senior management walking the talk.

    From an Industry point of view, the Industry is very poorly served by a toothless safety regulator who is perfectly aware of what is going on - after all they have undertaken study after study and concluded the same several times over - yet appears to only have the appetitite to "go after" the major Infrastructure Contractors, whose safety systems are far more advanced and whose safety culture is far greater advanced and compliant than the very body who they are working for. Yet the ORR sem only willing to tackle the smaller less controversial issues, whilst every month the CIRAS report produces case after case where swift hard enforcement action is needed. Until this happens and the ORR grow the balls to take the hard action that is required, frontline staff will continue to walk the tightrope which wehen the slip off it brings the iniquitous threat of prosecution from enforcement authorities and a legal system that is happy to tackle the periferies yet content to leave the real source of the problem (culture and aggressive management) untouched.

    The Police are simply seeking the first available person they can charge irrespective of the wider issues.

    Personally I feel the ORR ought to be going after senior management in the TOCs/FOCs because they are after all part of the "corporate" Industry culture. Only when really senior people are sat across the table speaking under Caution will things change.
     
  24. 455driver

    455driver On Moderation

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    And when you switch your phone back on you can explain why you were uncontactable for 2 hours as there has been a report of a track defect on your patch that needed inspecting straight away and there are 20 trains queueing up with a total of over 3000 delay minutes at say £50 each.

    And you can pick your P45 up on Friday.
     
  25. 9K43

    9K43 Member

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    What would you want, a proper inspection of the track, or an HST off all wheels at 125 mph?, with the problems that would cause.
    If you rush you make mistakes, some you get away with others land you in the soft and smelly.
    There is only one way to work on the railway and thats by the book and that means safely, where I have been told the cost does not matter.
     
  26. kettle8632

    kettle8632 Member

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    The general public hate these as they continuely give a warning siren about every 3 seconds,and then speeds up when a train arrives. If used all day it can drive you mad!!
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    There also another safety system called PLOD. Patrolman Lock Out Device. If my memory serves me correctly, it used in bi-directional areas like Didcot - Swindon. This stops the signalman using bi directional working while PLOD is activated.
     
  27. amcluesent

    amcluesent Member

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    Why do points fall to bits, with missing or broken stretcher bars? It should be simple to model the stresses with an engineering CAD tool and then design points with the correct materials to stand up to the use. Seems very old skool thinking to rely on blokes walking the line.
     
  28. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Because things wear out over time? You can design something to be a tough as you can afford/like but eventually it will still wear out and need replacing and the only way to keep an eye on things is to get out there and have a look at them.
     
  29. talltim

    talltim Established Member

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    Walking the line should also help pick up on thing like the state of vegetation and infrastructure. Even if your track became maintenance free your tunnels and bridges wouldn't.
     
  30. Trog

    Trog Established Member

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    I have been told this is something the structures people are thinking hard about as new computer systems, access problems and costs. Drive the P-Way away from manual patrolling.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---

    I don't know about willingly agreed but in the 1980's I can remember our Supervisors telling Bletchley PSB "Don't worry we will be done before the Monday rush." On several jobs where in a 23:00Sat to 16:00Sun possession we were still laying track hours after the possession was supposed to have been given up.

    In those days the drive was to get the most out of our budget, and having paid to get all the gear on site we were going to use it. Possession being nine points of the rule book.

    The overtime always came in handy as well, and we had dedicated staff in those days. With management often having to insist that the more enthusiastic members of staff might want to go home now. Indeed I can remember one manager hunting high and low for a PTO who had been on site for over 24 hours. Said PTO eventually being found hiding behind an old cabin, in the hope of being able to stay for a few more hours.
     
  31. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

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    I remember those days, and coming back on Sunday night to see which Possessions which should have finished at 1600 were still on ! :lol: :lol: :lol:

    I also remember on over-runs when there was no relief, sleeping in the brakevans of ballast trains when train working inspector, with a request to the Driver to give it a good snatch when he moved forward into the site, so that I woke up and climbed off to deal with the next one coming up behind.

    Thing was we kept the job running, and the renewals got done as well, and the slack in the timetable also helped.
     
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