Great Eastern services before electrification to Norwich and Class 86?

[Bald Rick]

Speaking of books when are you (and whilst I'm thinking about it @Bald Rick) going to get around to writing your memoirs and publishing them?

I have a working title... and that’s it so far!

 

[43096]

Oh was it still steam-heat before the air-cons came in?

Must have been! Were the early Mark 2s dual heat?

 

[ac6000cw]

Were the early Mark 2s dual heat?

Yes (or some of them at least, in their original form).

 

[O L Leigh]

I thought they were ex-ER displaced out by HSTs, the first rakes appearing from December 1980?

If that's the case then I stand corrected. However, I'd been told they were ex-WCML following the introduction of Mk3A stock at around the same time, hence my original statement.

 

[hexagon789]

Must have been! Were the early Mark 2s dual heat?

2Zs were iirc, though they were also vacuum braked only bar the ones converted for the E&G.

If that's the case then I stand corrected. However, I'd been told they were ex-WCML following the introduction of Mk3A stock at around the same time, hence my original statement.

The WCML had limited 2D stock as I understand, only FK and BFK which arrived for the EBW trains in ~1972.

The first WCML Mk3s also arrived way back in May 1975, predating even WR HSTs.

 

[Helvellyn]

If that's the case then I stand corrected. However, I'd been told they were ex-WCML following the introduction of Mk3A stock at around the same time, hence my original statement.

Mainly ex-ECML because as hexagon789 said only a limited number of Mk 2Ds went to the WCML (late build FOs, FKs and BFKs) working with Mk 2E TSOs.

Ex-WCML stock came across to replace the 2Ds though with 2F FOs and TSOs, plus spare Mk 3A RFMs. Mainly though stock displaced from North Wales Coast and through trains to Shrewsbury/Blackpool. Augmented with DBSOs ex-ScotRail and the 30 high density TSOs converted from declassified FOs that were displaced from peak busting MML/ECML services.

There was a switch to all 2E FOs in-between the above when the BFKs and 2D FOs were withdrawn, seeing services largely formed of 2E FOs, 2D TSOs/BSOs and Mk 1 RBRs.

 

[Taunton]

All the earlier non-AC Mk 2 were dual heat. In fact this was standard for the later Mk 1 stock as well, built after 1960, as it was needed for the WCML electrification where the locos were ETH only, but most diesels were still steam heat only. It was only when AC stock came along that steam heat was no longer installed.

 

[hexagon789]

Mainly ex-ECML because as hexagon789 said only a limited number of Mk 2Ds went to the WCML (l

Originally they worked with Mk2C stock I believe, the 2E TSOs coming later

Ex-WCML stock came across to replace the 2Ds though with 2F FOs and TSOs, plus spare Mk 3A RFMs. Mainly though stock displaced from North Wales Coast and through trains to Shrewsbury/Blackpool. Augmented with DBSOs ex-ScotRail and the 30 high density TSOs converted from declassified FOs that were displaced from peak busting MML/ECML services.

There was a switch to all 2E FOs in-between the above when the BFKs and 2D FOs were withdrawn, seeing services largely formed of 2E FOs, 2D TSOs/BSOs and Mk 1 RBRs.

I think this change was more towards the push-pull era, as I understand after the 2Ds arrived in late-1980 more Mk2 air-cons (2E & 2F) arrived in 1983 from the ER again displaced by HSTs. This allowed all Liverpool St-Norwich/Harwich trains to be booked air-con going into 1984.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Liverpool St to Harwich Parkeston Quay for the overnight DFDS boat to Esbjerg in May 1979.

Deffo a 37 out, can't remember on the return leg a couple of days later, as I was rather worse for wear.

 

[R Martin]

They were indeed. In the ''70s there was even a few still in two-tone green, a livery that I thought suited them well. Some of the Liverpool St trains were reversed at Norwich and sent on to Yarmouth (Yarmouth Vauxhall as it was named then). In those days the 17:30 down train had a struggle keeping to its path times as it was being hotly pursued by the 17:40 to Clacton comprising 2x2 cars and 2x4 cars giving the EMU over twice the power per tonne. If the Southend Victoria services weren't keeping to their path, the 17:30 was sometimes delayed beyond recovery before Shenfield.
The 16:50 from Liverpool St to Lowestoft often had a party feel to it especially in the winter, in the '70s it was usually all MKI stock.

Yes I remember the 17.40 Ex LV in the early 70's. I think that often the delay was due to the 17.30 Norwich, usually hauled by a 47, was behind a Southend Victoria, which as it had to cross the down line at Shenfield, often held for an up train from the Chelmsford direction.. The end result was a slow getaway from the signal check for the Norwich train and double yellows for the 17.40. at Brentwood. We often got double yellows again at Witham/Kelvedon. Often when we got into Colchester the Norwich was on the other side of the island platform.

 

[AM9]

Yes I remember the 17.40 Ex LV in the early 70's. I think that often the delay was due to the 17.30 Norwich, usually hauled by a 47, was behind a Southend Victoria, which as it had to cross the down line at Shenfield, often held for an up train from the Chelmsford direction.. The end result was a slow getaway from the signal check for the Norwich train and double yellows for the 17.40. at Brentwood. We often got double yellows again at Witham/Kelvedon. Often when we got into Colchester the Norwich was on the other side of the island platform.

Actually the series of events that led to the 17:30 delays was often even more complex. The fast Southend left LST shortly after a slow southend that stopped at platform 11 at Stratford and then ran on the down main to Gidea Park junction where it slipped onto the down Electric line between the Shenfield slows. Whilst on that section of the slows, the fast Southend had to overtake it and clear Shenfield junction to allow the Norwich a clear run through, hotly pursued by 1F78 ISTR - the 17:40 (very) fast Clacton. Similar sequences involving different down main services occurred every 10 minutes in the peak.
In a way, the 4 track GEML LST to Shenfield in the '70s was a shorter version of the MML as it is now with the Thameslink fasts seeking their paths between the TL stoppers on the slows and the EM non-stoppers on the fasts. The 309s were the equivalent of the 222s and the 47 LHCS trains were by comparison slow away like the HSTs are. Meanwhile the 305s,7s & 8s were there to thread a very fragile path as do the 700s.

 

[Cowley]

I have a working title... and that’s it so far!

I think @70014IronDuke should contribute a couple of chapters too.
Just to say, you are all very much appreciated on here...

 

[Alfie1014]

I think @70014IronDuke should contribute a couple of chapters too.
Just to say, you are all very much appreciated on here...

Chief Planner has a good memory.

The Lowestoft - London working was around 07.20 from Lowestoft, returning at 16.50.

There was also an Ipswich - Cambridge - Liverpool St working and return, something like 16.56 from Liverpool St, with a 37 and Mk1s

The North Country Continental was running from Parkeston to Manchester via Stowmarket at that time too.

The pride of the locomotive fleet though were Stratford 47s on the Norwich service.

I've not got a scan of a timetable from the 1980s but this is 1974 but I believe the structure of the timetable remained pretty much the same well into the 1980s subject to minor tweaking.

 

[Tio Terry]

I spent some time in the late 80's and early 90's travelling between Norwich and Liverpool St. Usually the 06:18 from Norwich returning on the 17:30 from Liverpool St. By then the trains were 86's if I recall correctly. When I first started with BR they were EE Type 3 and 4 hauled, that was in the mid 60's, there was a B1 steam loco used as a train heater at Norwich at that time. I was part of the team that designed and installed the electrification north of Colchester so saw the introduction of electrics to Ipswich and loco changes there before the completion to Norwich. Fond memories!

 

[delt1c]

2Zs were iirc, though they were also vacuum braked only bar the ones converted for the E&G.


The WCML had limited 2D stock as I understand, only FK and BFK which arrived for the EBW trains in ~1972.

The first WCML Mk3s also arrived way back in May 1975, predating even WR HSTs.

Post Electrification the Edinburgh / Glasgow - Birminghams were mainly Mk2C . Even up to the early 70's I remember the Edinburgh / Glasgow - Liverpool / Manchester were often Mk 1's. I remember going to Manchester in 1974 and being surprised when a 24 appeared out of the tunnel at Haymarket with the Edinburgh portion and steam heated. On arrival at Carstairs it was combined with the Glasgow portion and hauled by a 50 , obviously the stock was dual heat. Unfortunatley it failed on the climb to Shap.

 

[AM9]

I spent some time in the late 80's and early 90's travelling between Norwich and Liverpool St. Usually the 06:18 from Norwich returning on the 17:30 from Liverpool St. By then the trains were 86's if I recall correctly. When I first started with BR they were EE Type 3 and 4 hauled, that was in the mid 60's, there was a B1 steam loco used as a train heater at Norwich at that time. I was part of the team that designed and installed the electrification north of Colchester so saw the introduction of electrics to Ipswich and loco changes there before the completion to Norwich. Fond memories!

Talking of the '60s, I remember that the Norwich trains were hauled by class 40s then, - lesser services were trusted to class 31s.

 

[Grumbler]

During the 60s and 70s there were two trains every two hours, one taking two hours and the other two hours and twenty minutes, on paper at least. In practice delays of half an hour or more were quite usual. The trains were also filthy, stuffy and with faulty heating. The Good Old Days?

 

[hexagon789]

Post Electrification the Edinburgh / Glasgow - Birminghams were mainly Mk2C . Even up to the early 70's I remember the Edinburgh / Glasgow - Liverpool / Manchester were often Mk 1's. I remember going to Manchester in 1974 and being surprised when a 24 appeared out of the tunnel at Haymarket with the Edinburgh portion and steam heated. On arrival at Carstairs it was combined with the Glasgow portion and hauled by a 50 , obviously the stock was dual heat. Unfortunatley it failed on the climb to Shap.

I understand the 2Cs essentially went straight from the Euston-Preston/Carlisle/Glasgow to the Midlands-Scotland trains upon electrification being replaced by 12 coach Mk2D/F sets

 

[Tio Terry]

Talking of the '60s, I remember that the Norwich trains were hauled by class 40s then, - lesser services were trusted to class 31s.

Class 40's were originally EE Type 4's and class 37's were EE Type 3's pre TOPS. I can remember both types being used on Norwich - Liverpool St services. I also remember a Brush toffee apple with, I think, an experimental 2000hp engine being used as well.

 

[306024]

I've not got a scan of a timetable from the 1980s but this is 1974 but I believe the structure of the timetable remained pretty much the same well into the 1980s subject to minor tweaking.

View attachment 94079

That looks very familiar. Two hourly service to Manningtree, Stowmarket and Diss. However all those knives and forks!

 

[CW2]

<snip>

There was also an Ipswich - Cambridge - Liverpool St working and return, something like 16.56 from Liverpool St, with a 37 and Mk1s

<snip>

The evening Ipswich via Cambridge was known amongst the 37 bashers as "The Yactus". One of the aforementioned bashers worked as a booking office clerk at Liverpool Street. One day a foreign gentlemen came to his window and asked for a ticket to "Yactus" (Like "cactus" but with a "y").
After some discussion and scratching of the head, and several repetitions, someone had the bright idea of asking him to write down his destination. He spelt out: I-P-S-W-I-C-H. "Yactus!", he pronounced proudly. Thus "Ipswich" became known as "Yactus", with the title bestowed on the evening train via Cambridge.

Funny old world ...

 

[Tio Terry]

That looks very familiar. Two hourly service to Manningtree, Stowmarket and Diss. However all those knives and forks!

Knives and Forks!

Yes, there was a great Restaurant Car service! A lot of the food was prepared in the Refreshment Rooms at Norwich Station, they did a great Steak & Kidney pie!

At one time I was seconded to a post in Liverpool St from Norwich and would have my breakfast on the train every morning and evening meal every night, went on for over 12 months, loved it!

 

[306024]

Knives and Forks!

Yes, there was a great Restaurant Car service! A lot of the food was prepared in the Refreshment Rooms at Norwich Station, they did a great Steak & Kidney pie!

At one time I was seconded to a post in Liverpool St from Norwich and would have my breakfast on the train every morning and evening meal every night, went on for over 12 months, loved it!

At the risk of asking a personal question, how was your waistline at the end of that? If I worked late some evenings I would treat myself to dinner from Liverpool St. If you got on early enough and warned the crew they could serve two courses by Colchester, brilliant service.

The 07.56 Ipswich to Stowmarket is hidden away in the timetable, but the 'toasting fork' symbol gives this away as the North Country Continental from Parkeston to Manchester.

Also note the 15.30/16.30/17.30/18.40/19.30 departures from Liverpool St are all through trains to Great Yarmouth where the stock was stabled. Maintaining the fleet on the edge of Breydon Water in winter wasn't for the faint hearted.

 

[Taunton]

Actually the series of events that led to the 17:30 delays was often even more complex. The fast Southend left LST shortly after a slow Southend that stopped at platform 11 at Stratford and then ran on the down main to Gidea Park junction where it slipped onto the down Electric line between the Shenfield slows. Whilst on that section of the slows, the fast Southend had to overtake it and clear Shenfield junction to allow the Norwich a clear run through, hotly pursued by 1F78 ISTR - the 17:40 (very) fast Clacton. Similar sequences involving different down main services occurred every 10 minutes in the peak

Exactly this operating issue was described in Modern Railways in the early 1960s, where one of the last of the old small-format issues (1964?) did an extended article on the GE main line evening rush hour. The issues you get with an interleaving fast/slow line series of trains where tracks are paired by use were described. In those times, the signalmen in the cabins had no real vision of what was happening beyond their own box. Shenfield had a Southend train on the fast which still had not crossed over on approach and was going to get stopped in the platform, which would give all sorts of further issues and delay.

I only went down the line a few times in those older times, when it still had searchlight, though 4-aspect, signalling (LNER vintage?), but what struck me was the sheer density of the signals compared to elsewhere. Normally two, often three, visible ahead.

 

[AM9]

Exactly this operating issue was described in Modern Railways in the early 1960s, where one of the last of the old small-format issues (1964?) did an extended article on the GE main line evening rush hour. The issues you get with an interleaving fast/slow line series of trains where tracks are paired by use were described. In those times, the signalmen in the cabins had no real vision of what was happening beyond their own box. Shenfield had a Southend train on the fast which still had not crossed over on approach and was going to get stopped in the platform, which would give all sorts of further issues and delay.

I only went down the line a few times in those older times, when it still had searchlight, though 4-aspect, signalling (LNER vintage?), but what struck me was the sheer density of the signals compared to elsewhere. Normally two, often three, visible ahead.

I'm not sure where the '70s GEML stood in the league of highest density per track (which the original 'Jazz' service acquired back in the early '20s), in BR days, but everything on the line was geared to helping this intensive timetable work. Chelmsford was then one of the busiest stations in the Home counties using just 2 platforms, (as it is now) and the stream of trains passing through what was platform 3 at Shenfield was relentless from 17:00 to 18:30. As the years went on, diesel haulage was shown to be wanting amongst quite modest MKI EMUs which must have moved the DfT's predecessor to electrify to Ipswich and then Norwich.
As an adjunct to this discussion, in 1962, whilst at school, I did a paper round, on which I remember reading a leader story in the Essex Weekly News which announced a revolution in train services on the GEML, describing the arrival of the new "Clacton Express trains", (which was the shiny new class AM9s) and all the supporting Southend Victoria, Witham and Colchester EMU services. Ten years later, I was travelling on them and became interested in the complex way in which the timetable, (usually) held it all together.

 

[306024]

And all without the technology we take for granted today.

The train describers were something else. Hopefully someone remembers the detail better than me but a visit to the old Liverpool St signal box in 1978 was like visiting a museum. Not unknown for a signaller to stop a train outside the platforms and ask the driver what train it was.

Controllers recording the running of the service on huge A3 sheets of paper after a regular ‘square up’ with the signallers. Unit and loco workings recorded on coloured cards in a big rack against the diagrams. Match the colour of the diagram to the colour of the unit or loco was the theory unless you deliberately had a better plan.

 

[Tio Terry]

At the risk of asking a personal question, how was your waistline at the end of that? If I worked late some evenings I would treat myself to dinner from Liverpool St. If you got on early enough and warned the crew they could serve two courses by Colchester, brilliant service.

The 07.56 Ipswich to Stowmarket is hidden away in the timetable, but the 'toasting fork' symbol gives this away as the North Country Continental from Parkeston to Manchester.

Also note the 15.30/16.30/17.30/18.40/19.30 departures from Liverpool St are all through trains to Great Yarmouth where the stock was stabled. Maintaining the fleet on the edge of Breydon Water in winter wasn't for the faint hearted.

Didn't seem to matter what I ate in those long ago days, didn't affect me. Different story now though!

 

[David Burrows]

Memory says they had long been replaced by a DMU all the way to Sheringham (and back!) which I think was cl101s or similar. Cromer Beach had lost its run-round facilities by the mid 70s (which is when I started buying the national timetable and discovered the DMU....)

If memeory serves correctly from my days as a controller at Liverpool St, there was the 1004 Liverpool St to Sheringham and the return working, which was formed of 3 x 2 car 105 (Cravens) units, which came from Finsbury Park. It was formed of these units as Stratford drivers took it to Norwich and back and Norwich drivers forward to Sheringham - Norwich drivers did not sign the units which Stratford had in any numbers (the Lea Valley suburban units). On a number of occasions the ECS would turn up in Liverpool St with only 2 x 2 due to shortage of GN units which resulted in overcrowding. It would have been quite an experience for holidaymakers, travelling on somewhat tatty DMUs on which everything which could rattle rattled, especially at speed, windows, doors, seats. It probably did the unit's engines good to have a gallop down the GE main line instead of all stations GN suburban services!

Other people will have more correct detail but my Ipswich time was working for freight in 1980 to 1983 roughly.

The base service was hourly to Norwich , - first down one at about 0700 but there was an odd gap in the evening where after 1930 - the Ipswich connection was the 2150 to Clacton (a 309) with a 2 car Cravens DMU onwards , on reflection this was probably a balancing move to get the unit off maintenance at Colchester for more work locally. The last direct train from London was 2300. The 1620 off Liverpool St was the "crack" East Anglian which might have been first stop Ipswich.

There was I think one through London train each way off the East Suffolk line with a 37 and MK1's - the main Norwich services were very smart Stratford 47's with Mk2 stock and a MK1 buffet.

There were odd workings from the Ely direction to and from Harwich PQ - short MK1 sets , no doubt connecting with day and night sailings.

Electrification clearly doubled the service with an extra EMU to Ipswich (back extended from Colchester ?) and eventually more Norwich - London services but I had moved on by then. After the 1982 strikes , many thought that electrification was lost , but pleased to see it was pushed through.

The connection off the 2150 to Clacton was the Cravens unit off the Sudbury branch service, which returned to Ipswich for fuel etc

I'm not sure where the '70s GEML stood in the league of highest density per track (which the original 'Jazz' service acquired back in the early '20s), in BR days, but everything on the line was geared to helping this intensive timetable work. Chelmsford was then one of the busiest stations in the Home counties using just 2 platforms, (as it is now) and the stream of trains passing through what was platform 3 at Shenfield was relentless from 17:00 to 18:30. As the years went on, diesel haulage was shown to be wanting amongst quite modest MKI EMUs which must have moved the DfT's predecessor to electrify to Ipswich and then Norwich.
As an adjunct to this discussion, in 1962, whilst at school, I did a paper round, on which I remember reading a leader story in the Essex Weekly News which announced a revolution in train services on the GEML, describing the arrival of the new "Clacton Express trains", (which was the shiny new class AM9s) and all the supporting Southend Victoria, Witham and Colchester EMU services. Ten years later, I was travelling on them and became interested in the complex way in which the timetable, (usually) held it all together.

The service 'held together' due the brilliant train planners on the GE side who provided a timetable which worked, with, where possible, reasonable length turnrounds at the end of therir journeys and crews diagrams which did not cause chaos when things went wrong. If things were just runinng say 20-30 minutes late, with goodwill from most crews the service would soon recover on its own, far better than the modern way of dumping trains full of passengers from Liverpool St in the evening peak at places such as Colchester, just so that the retuen working could start from there on time with a handfull of passengers. Passengers mattered in those days, something which modern managers cannot apparently understand - performance is far more important than getting passengers home

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Exactly this operating issue was described in Modern Railways in the early 1960s, where one of the last of the old small-format issues (1964?) did an extended article on the GE main line evening rush hour. The issues you get with an interleaving fast/slow line series of trains where tracks are paired by use were described. In those times, the signalmen in the cabins had no real vision of what was happening beyond their own box. Shenfield had a Southend train on the fast which still had not crossed over on approach and was going to get stopped in the platform, which would give all sorts of further issues and delay.

I only went down the line a few times in those older times, when it still had searchlight, though 4-aspect, signalling (LNER vintage?), but what struck me was the sheer density of the signals compared to elsewhere. Normally two, often three, visible ahead.

Superb article that , and showed a clever timetable in operation with a mix of slow , (Ilford terminators ?) semi-fast and outer suburban electrics , with main line services on top. Weaves from line to line every 10 mins or so. Impressive. But then the GE had a long and honourable tradition of very intensive working with 24tph in steam days. The mechanical boxes were allowed to offer trains on with no "call attention" , some high ranking LNER official insisted on this , and as Fiennes said ,it brought the operation to a near stand. Normal pattern of operations resulted.

The Shenfield electrics must have been transformational , and I seem to recall the signalling on the "E" lines could display consecutive double yellows such was the spacing , something that was designed out on resignalling in the 1980's.

Somewhere around 1977 some student friends and I went to Liverpool St in the pm peak and stood on the old overbridge and watched the peak in action. An amazing and well managed sight. We were clocked by one of the supervisors who asked why we were hanging around , and was well pleased when we told him we had come along specially to see the operation.

 

[306024]

Would like to try to find that article. For many years it was the aspiration to move the timetable planning from Harwich House at Liverpool St up to the main York HQ. Fortunately wise managers knew you would lose all the detailed knowledge required and managed to prevent it.

The signalling on the main lines had many consecutive double yellows. Standing on Chadwell Heath station looking towards Goodmayes on the up main you could see the whole sequence : G YY YY YY Y R