Great Northern 313 Withdrawals

[Peter C]

No other TOC would want them. They are in extremely poor condition inside and out.

Exactly.

-Peter

 

[CHAPS2034]

For those who like them, thankfully there’s the Southern units.

And up north, still plenty of PEP action on Merseyrail until well into 2020

 

[daniel1234321]

isn't one earmarked by NRM - maybe a Southern one, you'd think they would want the orig seats for a future restoration of the unit or carriage they have earmarked ?

Is it? Do you know any more about this? It would be great to see one saved from scrapping.

 

[WesternLancer]

Is it? Do you know any more about this? It would be great to see one saved from scrapping.

could not recall where I saw it so googled it and it is on the 313 wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_313

Upon retirement 313201 will be preserved by the National Railway Museum.

Which may or may not be accurate!

I have to say IMHO that to NOT have some PEP stock in the national collection would be a serious omission - given the stock represented a major generational design change - and also a significant travel experience for millions of people who have relied on PEP derived units in various parts of the UK.

 

[SwindonBert]

Can't see any TOC wanting them, firstly their age & condition means it will cost to get them up to spec for a new TOC. Secondly, the one area they could do a job is to boost a limited rural service, but, they are electric & these areas aren't wired and, when they come to the end of their life they will need to be replaced probably making this uneconomic

 

[daniel1234321]

could not recall where I saw it so googled it and it is on the 313 wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_313

Upon retirement 313201 will be preserved by the National Railway Museum.

Which may or may not be accurate!

I have to say IMHO that to NOT have some PEP stock in the national collection would be a serious omission - given the stock represented a major generational design change - and also a significant travel experience for millions of people who have relied on PEP derived units in various parts of the UK.

That wiki article cites Rail Magazine Issue 876 Page 10 so if anyone has that please could you confirm? I agree, they should definitely keep some PEP stock, but I'd think it would make more sense to keep a unit with original seating (such as 313122/123/134) rather than a refurbished southern unit.

 

[WesternLancer]

That wiki article cites Rail Magazine Issue 876 Page 10 so if anyone has that please could you confirm? I agree, they should definitely keep some PEP stock, but I'd think it would make more sense to keep a unit with original seating (such as 313122/123/134) rather than a refurbished southern unit.

I prob have got that Rail but not sure I can quickly lay my hands on it - HOWEVER - this is more pertinent and up to date

https://group.sciencemuseum.org.uk/...19/03/op-rail-vehicle-strategy-2019_FINAL.pdf

see page 10 where the 313 gets a pic

"TABLE D: ELECTRICAL MULTIPLE UNITS FOR POTENTIAL PASSENGER RIDES ACROSS SMG SITES AND MAIN LINE USE"

Ideally one would acquire a 1st or early build then restore it internally with rescued orig seats off another one - but as we know preservation has much demands on it and limited resources, and 'modern' EMUs are probably not top of the queue, sadly... but grabbing seats and storing them would of course be an obvious thing to do - assuming someone has joined up the dots...

The docs of the sort above are often the museum sector's justification docs for acquisitions/ future use and even disposals and loans (NRM has featured in parts of the railway pres with some criticism for aspect of this I seem to recall, perhaps unfairly).

Or alternately - maybe drop a line to the NRM about the 313 and urge them to secure the seats out of one heading for Sims? NRM has good relationships with the ROSCOs I suspect so might happily ask and get given them....

 

[daniel1234321]

I prob have got that Rail but not sure I can quickly lay my hands on it - HOWEVER - this is more pertinent and up to date

https://group.sciencemuseum.org.uk/...19/03/op-rail-vehicle-strategy-2019_FINAL.pdf

see page 10 where the 313 gets a pic

"TABLE D: ELECTRICAL MULTIPLE UNITS FOR POTENTIAL PASSENGER RIDES ACROSS SMG SITES AND MAIN LINE USE"

Ideally one would acquire a 1st or early build then restore it internally with rescued orig seats off another one - but as we know preservation has much demands on it and limited resources, and 'modern' EMUs are probably not top of the queue, sadly... but grabbing seats and storing them would of course be an obvious thing to do - assuming someone has joined up the dots...

The docs of the sort above are often the museum sector's justification docs for acquisitions/ future use and even disposals and loans (NRM has featured in parts of the railway pres with some criticism for aspect of this I seem to recall, perhaps unfairly).

Or alternately - maybe drop a line to the NRM about the 313 and urge them to secure the seats out of one heading for Sims? NRM has good relationships with the ROSCOs I suspect so might happily ask and get given them....

I've reached out to the NRM about getting a low back seating GN 313 so I'll let you know when they get back to me.

 

[WesternLancer]

I've reached out to the NRM about getting a low back seating GN 313 so I'll let you know when they get back to me.

Nice one, tho obv the 1st of class is the one they have identified and southern already done exterior renovations on, so probably being earmarked already it gets 'extra care' as depot staff probably know the NRM want it etc.
Maybe they could secure the interior of an original for retro fitting to 1st of class if that became a feasible project after withdrawal?

Mind you - interesting to wonder why they did not ear mark the most un-altered 313 to start with if they were planning to secure one. Unless a 1st of class is unique or symbolic in some way you would think the most unaltered if of most historic interest.

No doubt they have their reasons...

 

[Bikeman78]

Moorgate to Stevenage via Hertford North would be the longest run I think, but they only do that on weekends now (1tph). The longest weekday journey is Moorgate to Watton-at-Stone I think at almost 25 miles, also via Hertford North (2tph).
But if it's top speed you're after, the Welwyn branch may offer more opportunity. Someone more informed than I could probably chime in.

North of Gordon Hill on the Hertford line is the best bet for 75 mph. Especially the trains that miss out some stops.

 

[Southsider]

Nice one, tho obv the 1st of class is the one they have identified and southern already done exterior renovations on, so probably being earmarked already it gets 'extra care' as depot staff probably know the NRM want it etc.
Maybe they could secure the interior of an original for retro fitting to 1st of class if that became a feasible project after withdrawal?

Mind you - interesting to wonder why they did not ear mark the most un-altered 313 to start with if they were planning to secure one. Unless a 1st of class is unique or symbolic in some way you would think the most unaltered if of most historic interest.

No doubt they have their reasons...

Would it not make more sense to preserve a 314 as representative of PEPs? All the features in a smaller package.

 

[daniel1234321]

North of Gordon Hill on the Hertford line is the best bet for 75 mph. Especially the trains that miss out some stops.

Yeah 2 of the 4tph off peak go Gordon Hill, Cuffley, Hertford North so those ones are definitely your best bet. Then again there is a train in the peak heading from Hertford North into Moorgate at 1737 that runs non stop from Gordon Hill to Alexandra Palace, might be worth a try too. That service normally runs very fast to Bowes Park and then slows down but would still be worth doing.

 

[daniel1234321]

Would it not make more sense to preserve a 314 as representative of PEPs? All the features in a smaller package.

313s were the first PEPs though and are dual voltage as well.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yeah 2 of the 4tph off peak go Gordon Hill, Cuffley, Hertford North so those ones are definitely your best bet. Then again there is a train in the peak heading from Hertford North into Moorgate at 1737 that runs non stop from Gordon Hill to Alexandra Palace, might be worth a try too. That service normally runs very fast to Bowes Park and then slows down but would still be worth doing.

Thanks! Helpful info!

 

[Bikeman78]

Yeah 2 of the 4tph off peak go Gordon Hill, Cuffley, Hertford North so those ones are definitely your best bet. Then again there is a train in the peak heading from Hertford North into Moorgate at 1737 that runs non stop from Gordon Hill to Alexandra Palace, might be worth a try too. That service normally runs very fast to Bowes Park and then slows down but would still be worth doing.

That train used to be even faster until May. Possibly non stop to Gordon Hill? It certainly didn't stop at Bayford.

 

[daniel1234321]

That train used to be even faster until May. Possibly non stop to Gordon Hill? It certainly didn't stop at Bayford.

I've got paper copies of the timetables on the Hertford Loop going back a few years. Before may 2018 there was a service that ran half hourly from Stevenage from 1751 to 1921, then at 1957, then from Hertford North half hourly from 1935 to 2105 that skipped Bayford, Crews Hill and then went non stop from Palmers Green to Finsbury Park. After may 2018 there were no longer any services that omit Alexandra Palace.

 

[Ianno87]

North of Gordon Hill on the Hertford line is the best bet for 75 mph. Especially the trains that miss out some stops.

I've got paper copies of the timetables on the Hertford Loop going back a few years. Before may 2018 there was a service that ran half hourly from Stevenage from 1751 to 1921, then at 1957, then from Hertford North half hourly from 1935 to 2105 that skipped Bayford, Crews Hill and then went non stop from Palmers Green to Finsbury Park. After may 2018 there were no longer any services that omit Alexandra Palace.

Pre-May 2018 there was an even contra-peak Fast Line run from Potters Bar to Finsbury Park on one...

 

[Bikeman78]

Pre-May 2018 there was an even contra-peak Fast Line run from Potters Bar to Finsbury Park on one...

Yes there were two such trains half an hour apart. I had a couple of rides on them early last year. They certainly shifted.

 

[Cletus]

Hopefully 313059 is out today, today might be my last chance to get it.

 

[daniel1234321]

Hopefully 313059 is out today, today might be my last chance to get it.

058 is on the 0628 SVG-MOG if that helps

 

[Cletus]

Ok. I have fingers crossed!

 

[Class315]

Hopefully 313059 is out today, today might be my last chance to get it.

313059 is paired with 041 they're both currently on Hertford North CHS 3 Road, as it stands the units have no passenger allocation besides 5E80 13+25 Hertford North - Hornsey EMUD.

 

[Cletus]

313059 is paired with 041 they're both currently on Hertford North CHS 3 Road, as it stands the units have no passenger allocation besides 5E80 13+25 Hertford North - Hornsey EMUD.

Thanks for that.
Was that way earlier, saw or went on 3x717 and 8x313 with no luck, so went on to Paddington to search out remaining 387’s due to transfer to Heathrow.

 

[Steve Rickett]

During one hour (16:15 to 17:15) in the evening rush on Thursday 11th July and 2.75 hours in the morning rush hour on Friday 12th July (06:00 to 08:45) I noted 22 x Class 313s - 122/030/032/033/134/035/037/038/041/042/045/047/048/049/051/052/057/058/059/060/061/064. Only 039/040/044 missing of the GN examples currently active? Also noted were 717004/005/006/009/010/011/013/014/016/018/020

 

[trainmania100]

Mondays move to Newport
https://live.rail-record.co.uk/rail/liverail/train/706099/15/07/19

Allegedly one to Masborough on Wednesday also.

 

[bramling]

Mondays move to Newport
https://live.rail-record.co.uk/rail/liverail/train/706099/15/07/19

Allegedly one to Masborough on Wednesday also.

Not sure if there’s a closet 313 enthusiast somewhere, however a pair of 313s were booked to do a Moorgate to Royston service this evening in connection with engineering work. Looks like it’s going away at Letchworth though, presumably due to crewing issues.

 

[hooverboy]

No other TOC would want them. They are in extremely poor condition inside and out.

if they would fit, then island line would be viable enough.

someone ought to just "donate" one for a few weeks to test out.
Jst pull it through the ryde tunnel+esplanade platform etc with a small shunter,and stick a load of sensors on to check for clearances
If they work then bag half a dozen or so before they end up at the knackers yard.

upgrading the line electrics to 750v wouldn't take that long after that.

 

[sd0733]

According to the UK modern EMU group 313038 and 042 will be the ones going to Newport on Monday with 313040 and 058 heading to Booths on Wednesday.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Although indeed C313s are regarded as the first production 'PEP' units, it's worth recalling that the prototype trains were actually aluminium bodied, had all axles powered and offered three doors per side. They really were what one needs for intense suburban railways; the prototypes had a power/weight ratio 30% higher than C313. The 455s, a derivative of the C313, somehow ended up with a power/weight ratio 5% lower again than the C313, a result of being heavier. Really not what's needed on a suburban railway although it's taken us all about 40 years to realise that!
Still, I remember the C313s being introduced on the GN in 1977 and the original 20 min off-peak timetable that came with it. Tremendous improvement on the erratic DMU service beforehand. They've had an honourable life these past 43 years and have certainly earned their keep.

 

[Chris125]

if they would fit, then island line would be viable enough.

They don't fit, if nothing else at 20m they are too long to easily fit through the tunnel or the platform at Esplanade and with shorter, lower, lighter D78s in better condition available it's hard to see a need.