Great Northern and Thameslink May 18 service changes

[mongoose]

The WGC-KGX services are now in the planner. No first class fares available.

 

[jon0844]

The WGC-KGX services are now in the planner. No first class fares available.

I think first class will appear when trains run from WGC through the core, but we shall see. That's a long time in the future.

 

[mongoose]

I think first class will appear when trains run from WGC through the core, but we shall see. That's a long time in the future.

It looks like the incoming services (to WGC) terminate and then head into the sidings for 10 minutes before reappearing for the return journey.

 

[Roy Badami]

According to http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/184755.aspx all GTR services will now be T-2 !!!!!

EDIT: Also notable that the first week of Thameslink (which previously showed as a confirmed timetable) has now reverted to unconfirmed T-2.

 

[neilm]

According to http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/184755.aspx all GTR services will now be T-2 !!!!!

EDIT: Also notable that the first week of Thameslink (which previously showed as a confirmed timetable) has now reverted to unconfirmed T-2.

Indeed, ridiculous. Interesting if the OOR pick up on this, as this is becoming very concerning.

 

[Roy Badami]

What's the betting it will end up T+1. Just run whatever you feel like on the day, and then publish a retrospective timetable after the fact showing what you ran /s

 

[jon0844]

What's the betting it will end up T+1. Just run whatever you feel like on the day, and then publish a retrospective timetable after the fact showing what you ran /s

I like it. Of course, if there's a signal failure that results in a service arriving 30 minutes late it will be a little frustrating for it to have to do that for another six months.

I have to say that I would at some point like to know if any trains will be running on weekends, although Network Rail will of course get plenty of time to do engineering works if they don't.

 

[Roy Badami]

I like it. Of course, if there's a signal failure that results in a service arriving 30 minutes late it will be a little frustrating for it to have to do that for another six months.

I have to say that I would at some point like to know if any trains will be running on weekends, although Network Rail will of course get plenty of time to do engineering works if they don't.

Personally, I use GTR mainly at weekends .I'd still quite like to know if there will be any trains running on weekdays, though

 

[Roy Badami]

Also, more seriously, am I not right in understanding that thet GTR timetable will change on a weekly basis? At least during the early part of the new timetable period?

So T-2 really is T-2 - you have no idea what the timetable will be until 2 weeks before....

 

[jon0844]

Also, more seriously, am I not right in understanding that thet GTR timetable will change on a weekly basis? At least during the early part of the new timetable period?

So T-2 really is T-2 - you have no idea what the timetable will be until 2 weeks before....

Yes, I read it is being introduced gradually. Who knows how that's going to work!

Printed timetables can't surely have loads of dates, so the printed guides and platform posters will presumably have some sort of note beside them, and you'll HAVE to use the app to actually be sure.

I know it's a massive shakeup and I also know that come December there will likely be a load of tweaks and adjustments to fix problems that come up, but it's still mad that it has taken so long. It's as if nobody remembered the deadline!

Just as I am sure come 2020 we'll have people who failed to make trains fully accessible/compliant and will somehow expect to be given an extension.

 

[Roy Badami]

Printed timetables can't surely have loads of dates

No need for lots of dates given T-2; the printed timetables will be able to show this week and next week (at best); and they'll have to reprint them on a weekly basis.

 

[bramling]

Yes, I read it is being introduced gradually. Who knows how that's going to work!

Printed timetables can't surely have loads of dates, so the printed guides and platform posters will presumably have some sort of note beside them, and you'll HAVE to use the app to actually be sure.

I know it's a massive shakeup and I also know that come December there will likely be a load of tweaks and adjustments to fix problems that come up, but it's still mad that it has taken so long. It's as if nobody remembered the deadline!

Just as I am sure come 2020 we'll have people who failed to make trains fully accessible/compliant and will somehow expect to be given an extension.

It's ridiculous that things have run so close to the wire - how many years have there been to prepare for this?

I've been running the new timetable in Simsig these last few days, which gives a pretty good indication of how things will look in real life - the only thing it doesn't take into account is what happens with crew duties. With no delays everything just about works, albeit with the KX-Cambridge and KX-Welwyn stopping services being heavily padded. Welwyn GC is certainly a massive bottleneck, and even small delays will be heavily felt here. Likewise there is a lot of tailchasing on the slow lines between Welwyn and London, and between Hitchin and Cambridge which will be badly felt. Finsbury Park platforms 2 and 7 are bottlenecks too. I really think it's going to be a massive challenge to incorporate the Cambridge stopping service into Thameslink. On the plus side the almost total lack of booked crossing movements between slow and fast lines inwards of Digswell should benefit VTEC performance.

We also now have quite a few Welwyn services booked to use the US2 and DS2 lines between Alexandra Palace and Finsbury Park - which doesn't happen today. Alexandra Palace will be a major bottleneck, particularly with the KX-Cambridge stopping services now all booked to use the slow lines. I'm sure it's been done like this in order to keep the slow lines clear for the Cambridge services, however from a track layout point of view it's much more desirable for Hertford services to use the US2 and DS2, which is what tends to happen today. I'm surprised those services using the US2 haven't been given different reporting numbers (today they use 2U** instead of 2J**) - this certainly isn't going to make life easy for the signallers particularly in the early days.

Another thing I've noticed is the early morning service is much more heavily centred around trains coming out of Hornsey compared to today. Any problem in this area will leave the morning peak rather vulnerable.

The skip stopping on the Welwyn 313 services is also rather confusing at times - right down to a few up 313 services missing Hatfield of all places!

 

[whoosh]

When class 717s take over the inner suburban, the 'tail chasing' will ease a little. I think 5 minutes could be saved on the end to end journey time between Moorgate and Welwyn easily (and the same saving to Hertford). The vast majority of the saving will be North of Finsbury Park.

 

[bramling]

When class 717s take over the inner suburban, the 'tail chasing' will ease a little. I think 5 minutes could be saved on the end to end journey time between Moorgate and Welwyn easily (and the same saving to Hertford). The vast majority of the saving will be North of Finsbury Park.

Let’s hope so - they really are going to need every second they can recover if things aren’t going to seriously fall apart between London and Welwyn when things drift even slightly off book. Quite a few of the 313 services have short turnarounds in places too.

 

[whoosh]

It's not just quicker acceleration they'll have, but door opening and closing times will be a lot quicker too.

 

[jon0844]

Let’s hope so - they really are going to need every second they can recover if things aren’t going to seriously fall apart between London and Welwyn when things drift even slightly off book. Quite a few of the 313 services have short turnarounds in places too.

With drivers needing to take comfort breaks, some turnarounds at WGC are already near impossible if they come in more than a minute or two late. And if they go out late there's not much recovery time when services are busy. 4tph may help by reducing dwell times and 717s will have acceleration to help, but it's by no means clear.

I expect with 4tph the thinking will be to cancel services and run fast, or skip stops. Passengers will need to keep their wits about them, especially when 313s have no screens and questionable PA systems on some units.

 

[mongoose]

Will there be any scope to reinstate the Oakleigh Park and New Southgate peak frequency to 6tph when the 717s are introduced?

 

[jellybaby]

Will there be any scope to reinstate the Oakleigh Park and New Southgate peak frequency to 6tph when the 717s are introduced?

The local MP has been promised the Oakleigh Park stops will be back in December.

This is an update for constituents worried about the imminent loss of two crucial train services in the morning on the Great Northern Line at Oakleigh Park station. This is not acceptable. As soon as I heard about it, I immediately contacted GTR to demand that the services were restored. They’ve now promised me that the two trains will be put back into the timetable for Oakleigh Park in December, after new rolling stock is introduced on the line later this year.

I know how angry commuters are about this proposed change. It’s also completely unacceptable that it was announced at the last minute, without passengers having any chance to express their views on it. The planned service cut was not mentioned in the timetable consultation that GTR carried out last year.

I raised this issue in Parliament yesterday and called on the Rail Minister to help me hold GTR to their promise that the cut in services is only temporary.​

 

[bramling]

With drivers needing to take comfort breaks, some turnarounds at WGC are already near impossible if they come in more than a minute or two late. And if they go out late there's not much recovery time when services are busy. 4tph may help by reducing dwell times and 717s will have acceleration to help, but it's by no means clear.

I expect with 4tph the thinking will be to cancel services and run fast, or skip stops. Passengers will need to keep their wits about them, especially when 313s have no screens and questionable PA systems on some units.

There's some really horrible timetabling at Alexandra Palace, Welwyn GC and Hitchin -- where things are all arranged finely and if one train is delayed it will cause chaos.

For example, at Hitchin you firstly get the Cambridge-KX service, followed immediately by the Kings Lynn/Ely-KX service, followed immediately by the Peterborough-Horsham. There's so much scope for that to go wrong. Another example is at Alexandra Palace where some of the up Welwyn-Moorgate services are turned onto the US2, to make way for faster services - again all meshed in with only a couple of minutes padding, and with a Hertford service close behind conflicting with both.

All in all the Peterborough-Horsham up workings don't get a good run - they will be prone to picking up delays at Hitchin, and quite possibly around Woolmer Green too.

So far I've run the timetable up to 0930 and picked up on a couple of relatively minor issues - mainly surrounding empty stock workings which don't work. However it does work with no delays. Unfortunately, it's a rather different story if delays are introduced - meltdown in places! It's simpler than the current timetable on one score though, namely that sites like Marshmoor, Potters Bar and New Barnet can stay on auto all day.

 

[whoosh]

For example, at Hitchin you firstly get the Cambridge-KX service, followed immediately by the Kings Lynn/Ely-KX service, followed immediaftely by the Peterborough-Horsham.

This is the reason a new traincrew messroom is being placed at Stevenage - so these services don't change drivers at Hitchin.

 

[philjo]

According to an article in The Evening Standard, the new Thameslink/GN timetable will be phased with some changes made gradually until 11 June. A minority of trains will not run during the changeover period. No details though of the trains that will be amended during that period.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...metable-shakeup-in-rail-history-a3822146.html

Commuters were today warned of three weeks of potential chaos during the “biggest timetable shake-up in rail history”.

Southern, Thameslink, Great Northern and Gatwick Express — together responsible for almost a million journeys a day — will depart at different times than at present.

The new timetable has been drawn up on a “blank sheet of paper” to enable Thameslink services to expand.

More trains, with more carriages, will run across all parts of the Govia Thameslink railway — the UK’s largest franchise and the most congested network in the country — from May 20.

Alteration: The changes will affect almost a million journeys each day (PA)
However, it will take until June 11 for the new timetable to be fully implemented. A minority of trains will not run during the changeover period.

The changes include:

• Direct Thameslink trains from Cambridge and Peterborough to Brighton or Horsham for the first time.
• Fifteen Thameslink trains from Brighton to London Bridge in the morning peak, compared with five now.
• Up to a third more seats and carriages on services between Bedford, Luton and St Albans and St Pancras.
• Southern trains on the West London line to increase from five to eight carriages.
• Thameslink services previously diverted via Crystal Palace will call again at London Bridge.
• A doubling of off-peak capacity on the Catford loop.
• New Thameslink services between Rainham and Luton.
• Services from Horsham and Littlehampton to London Bridge will switch from Southern to Thameslink.

The aim of the changes is to respond to the dramatic increase in passenger numbers by scheduling more time for boarding at 75 stations.


Extra time is also being allowed at terminus stations for the trains to be readied for return journeys.

The practice of trains being split or having extra carriages added at London Bridge and Victoria will be ended. The timetable endeavours to keep the same trains and crew on the same line throughout the day.

Charles Horton, GTR chief executive, said: “A huge number of passengers will notice the benefits in terms of new journeys, better intervals between trains, improved reliability, and more capacity across a wide region.

“We are redeploying trains and crew and there may be some disruption, so we ask passengers for their understanding during the transition period of several weeks during which time a very small number of trains will not run.”

For full details of timetable changes go to railplan2020.com.

 

[jon0844]

Printed timetables will be at stations on May 4th. So by then we might know if trains will run at weekends!

 

[Verulamius]

Press release from GTR earlier today gives more detail around which trains will not run during the initial weeks.

http://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia-...p-in-major-advance-for-rail-expansion-2486429

Transition period

On most routes, the new timetable will operate in its entirety from Sunday 20 May. However, on some, a limited number of individual existing services will not run at the beginning – one or two in each weekday peak and some in the off-peak. This will steadily reduce in number as trains are moved into place. The full service will run across all routes from 11 June.

The routes where services are reduced are:

Peterborough - London: 2 trains in each peak (1 for 2 weeks, 1 for a single week)
Luton - London: 1 train in the morning peak (for 1 week), 2 trains in the evening peak (1 for 1 week and one for 3 weeks)
Rainham - London: 1 train in the morning peak (for 2 weeks); 1 train in the evening peak (for 3 weeks)
Orpington - London: There are no trains affected in the peak, only off-peak
Horsham - London: There are no trains affected in the peak, only off-peak

 

[carlovel1]

Hadley Wood and it's low usage did not warrant an increase in services in my opinion. Would have liked the semi fast WGC-Moorgate service to call at Hatfield, Potters Bar, (skip Hadley Wood) New Barnet, Oakleigh Park, New Southgate, Finsbury Park then all stops.

Would have made up somewhat for the lack of increase in fast services between WGC and Potters Bar but alas.

 

[bramling]

Hadley Wood and it's low usage did not warrant an increase in services in my opinion. Would have liked the semi fast WGC-Moorgate service to call at Hatfield, Potters Bar, (skip Hadley Wood) New Barnet, Oakleigh Park, New Southgate, Finsbury Park then all stops.

Would have made up somewhat for the lack of increase in fast services between WGC and Potters Bar but alas.

Trouble is that you would then reduce places like Hadley Wood to 2tph, which is a reduction compared to today. Usage levels may be appropriate for this, however politically it would be contentious. Off-peak the Welwyn 313 services today load very lightly - especially north of New Barnet.

It doesn’t help that the KX Cambridge stopping services will be so heavily padded from May that cycling would likely be quicker.

 

[Verulamius]

Full details of the introductionary timetable over the four week period post 20 May are now on the railplan2020.com website

Https://www.railplan2020.com/timetables/timetables-introduction

 

[APUK002]

Printed timetables will be at stations on May 4th. So by then we might know if trains will run at weekends!

Aha,ok

 

[urpert]

Full details of the introductionary timetable over the four week period post 20 May are now on the railplan2020.com website

Https://www.railplan2020.com/timetables/timetables-introduction

Interesting. The main change in my area is that Thameslink are going to continue running the peak services via Penge East for the first few weeks rather than them passing to Southeastern as planned.

 

[wipeout]

Trouble is that you would then reduce places like Hadley Wood to 2tph, which is a reduction compared to today. Usage levels may be appropriate for this, however politically it would be contentious. Off-peak the Welwyn 313 services today load very lightly - especially north of New Barnet.

It doesn’t help that the KX Cambridge stopping services will be so heavily padded from May that cycling would likely be quicker.

The problem is that in the morning peak Oakleigh Park gets exactly the same service as Hadley Wood even though Oakleigh Park has 2.65 times the footfall.

If Hadley Wood can justify 4 tph, shouldn't Oakleigh Park get 10 tph?

 

[700007]

I'm sorry, have I missed something???? RTT for some odd reason has listed the Horsham via Dorking trains as a ThamesLink service from the 20th May timetable change. Running Horsham to London Victoria, but not as Southern.