Great Northern and Thameslink May 18 service changes

[Minstral25]

GTR want dispatch to start 40 seconds before time, leading to RA at 20 seconds before time. (If this happens and the drivers play ball, trains will leave early all over the place. Granted it'd be by ten or so seconds, but that's not much consolation when passengers see their train leaving before time.)
Frankly, it's not about being 'quicker off the mark' - when the train is ready to go, it goes. If it comes in early enough it'll leave on time. No dispatcher stands there watching the time pass.

Why can't they make the public timetable 1 minute ahead of the Working Time Table, then start despatch exactly on-time to the Public timetable and then have 1 minute to get the train out - then the public won't have to think about 40 seconds before or get annoyed because the doors close in front of them when the public departure time is not up there yet. Remove conflict and de-stress everyone

 

[IKB]

GTR want dispatch to start 40 seconds before time, leading to RA at 20 seconds before time. (If this happens and the drivers play ball, trains will leave early all over the place. Granted it'd be by ten or so seconds, but that's not much consolation when passengers see their train leaving before time.)
Frankly, it's not about being 'quicker off the mark' - when the train is ready to go, it goes. If it comes in early enough it'll leave on time. No dispatcher stands there watching the time pass.

Passengers (at least the regular commuter types) are used to seeing signs stating 'doors close up to 30 seconds before departure'. I have little sympathy if their train rolls out 10-20 seconds early I'm afraid. Being on time at key flat junctions and keeping the whole service regulated to time is more important then leaving behind a few stragglers who cut things tight to the nearest 10-20 seconds.

In any case, starting dispatch "40 seconds before time" would be a struggle somewhere like East Croydon, as there are not enough staff to dispatch both sides of the island platforms at the same time. Unless of course the new timetable involves an uplift in platform staff.

 

[JonathanH]

Why can't they make the public timetable 1 minute ahead of the Working Time Table, then start despatch exactly on-time to the Public timetable and then have 1 minute to get the train out - then the public won't have to think about 40 seconds before or get annoyed because the doors close in front of them when the public departure time is not up there yet. Remove conflict and de-stress everyone

I'm not so sure. Platform staff would still dispatch to the public timetable - North Downs Line trains at Redhill towards Reading were moved to xx13 public, xx14 WTT - the despatchers simply started dispatching for xx13.

 

[Fred26]

I'm not so sure. Platform staff would still dispatch to the public timetable - North Downs Line trains at Redhill towards Reading were moved to xx13 public, xx14 WTT - the despatchers simply started dispatching for xx13.

Of course, because dispatch is to the public timetable.

I don't have any sympathy for people who turn up at the last second, but that hardly matters when the dispatcher gets it in the neck from said passenger.
As it is, I don't see a problem with how trains are dispatched. Dispatchers are hardly likely to hold trains for the sake of it - get them in, get them out.

 

[swt_passenger]

If trains were routinely moving only 1 min after the public departure time, wouldn’t there just be numerous complaints that the train was a minute late?

 

[APUK002]

GTR want dispatch to start 40 seconds before time, leading to RA at 20 seconds before time. (If this happens and the drivers play ball, trains will leave early all over the place. Granted it'd be by ten or so seconds, but that's not much consolation when passengers see their train leaving before time.)
Frankly, it's not about being 'quicker off the mark' - when the train is ready to go, it goes. If it comes in early enough it'll leave on time. No dispatcher stands there watching the time pass.

Oh really

 

[gingerheid]

If the Cambridge North timetable on Realtime Trains is showing the KX fasts correctly it's most wonderful news!

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/05/25/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

... does anyone know if it is?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I am extremely disappointed in a lot of the timetables. Should probably try to do it on a route-by-route basis.

Horsham to Peterborough and Kings Cross to Peterborough
So there is nothing hugely contentious; but I don't really understand why they have a load of random extra trains going back towards London of an evening that go fast? I understand a 16:00-19:00 set of express trains up to Posh; but not a load of back workings. I assume the stock needs to come back to London and vice versa - the rumour was Kings Cross men were stuck working the Posh fast trains as the Peterborough men are too taken up with Thameslink work... Then again, what is a bit rubbish is the use of Gatwick Airport starters so the Horsham services instead go to Bedford in the morning peak. No consistency is always going to cause trouble!

Cambridge route
Can't really say much as it isn't all loaded in yet. Then again, the Baldock terminators remain a stupid idea as when they run late they'll snarl up the up trains or they'll just be pined at Letchworth anyway. Stupid ideas. One thing the Welwyn North and Knebworth lot have 'won' with is the half-hourly fast service to London at peak times.

Greenwich line
Still a huge punctuality risk and to be blunt the timetable is absolutely thick. The first train of the morning goes as far as Dartford only so it can come back down to Gillingham (now the first down train to Gillingham starts at Dartford off Slade Green Depot so Thameslink don't have an easy way of making that work) and there's a load of Dartford starters / finishers during the night. I have to be honest, this is rubbish. The last down train leaves Dartford at 01:24 which isn't even a cross platform connection with only 6 minutes from the down train from London.

Horsham side
Morning peak trains to London go to Bedford, evening peak ones back still come from Peterborough. Daft.

New Cross Gate
There is no way they couldn't path at least two trains an hour to stop there on their way to / from East Croydon. Now the convenient Horsham to London Bridge train stopping there giving those journey options is pulled out and they are lumbered with changing at Norwood onto the ELL there which will add to congestion on off-peak trains. Daft!

And there's a load more stupid stuff that just makes no bloody sense.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

If the Cambridge North timetable on Realtime Trains is showing the KX fasts correctly it's most wonderful news!

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/05/25/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

... does anyone know if it is?

Good use of Cambridge North by the Norwich, Ely and Kings Lynn trains so it actually gets a worthwhile service!

 

[Class 170101]

Doesn't seem complete if you ask me. Nothing between 16:00 and 22:44?

 

[Hadders]

Doesn't look as though all the Bedford trains are loaded either. Between 1700 and 1800 I can only see 3 trains that go from STP to BDM and 4 between 1800 and 1900.

I thought the rationale for no EMT trains serving Bedford in the peak was so that more Thameslink trains could operate.

 

[Starmill]

Horsham side
Morning peak trains to London go to Bedford, evening peak ones back still come from Peterborough. Daft.

I would speculate that this is related to an unwillingness to have trains originate at Gatwick Airport in the morning peak.

There does not seem to be a comparable aversion to terminating trains there in the evening peak, but I can still understand why this might not be seen as a desirable option. I suppose fundamentally it comes back to the fact that Gatwick Airport still doesn't have enough platforms.

 

[JonathanH]

I would speculate that this is related to an unwillingness to have trains originate at Gatwick Airport in the morning peak.

There does not seem to be a comparable aversion to terminating trains there in the evening peak, but I can still understand why this might not be seen as a desirable option. I suppose fundamentally it comes back to the fact that Gatwick Airport still doesn't have enough platforms.

There will be loads of trains terminating and starting on the slow side of Gatwick in the morning peak as
* Southern will run Gatwick to Victoria slows via Redhill (to provide the additional carriages for services starting at Reigate and provide Salfords and Earlswood with a service to Victoria)
* Thameslink will run Gatwick to Peterborough services slow via Redhill (actually Redhill's fastest service to London)
* GWR will run Gatwick to Reading services.

Interestingly, there are quite a few northbound departures from platform 3 at Gatwick Airport.

The Horsham to Bedford service is the slowest service northbound from Redhill with the incredible decision to stop it not only at Merstham, Coulsdon South, Purley and East Croydon but also South Croydon and Norwood Junction. This takes a whole 50 minutes to get from Gatwick Airport to London Bridge (and 40 minutes from Redhill).

 

[Starmill]

The Horsham to Bedford service is the slowest service northbound from Redhill with the incredible decision to stop it not only at Merstham, Coulsdon South, Purley and East Croydon but also South Croydon and Norwood Junction.

But not Purley Oaks

A South Croydon stop in particular seems a little over the top! Some of them are 5 minutes after a train from Caterham!

As for your good analysis about the 9Jxx still being there but starting at Gatwick Airport, I have no idea. Maybe they need trains that start at Horsham in the morning to go somewhere other than Peterborough...

 

[JonathanH]

I suspect the South Croydon stop is something to do with the platform 4 problem at East Croydon - the train will get held up anyway on the run in to the station so it might as well stop at South Croydon instead of the last signal before East Croydon.

 

[JonathanH]

I am extremely disappointed in a lot of the timetables. Should probably try to do it on a route-by-route basis.

Horsham side
Morning peak trains to London go to Bedford, evening peak ones back still come from Peterborough. Daft.

It seems to me that this is a pathing issue. The Brighton to Cambridge service comes off the main line at Balcombe Tunnel Junction to go up through Three Bridges and Gatwick on the slow side before going back to the Quarry Line. This lets a Brighton to Victoria 'Gatwick Express' service pass through on the fast line. As a result, the path the Horsham to Peterborough uses off-peak is not available between Three Bridges and Gatwick Airport.

For all the talk about not running different timetables at different times of the day (peak / off-peak) which is the problem with the current timetable, they haven't really achieved this (although perhaps it is more standard within the peak).

 

[hassaanhc]

And the first service train from the ECML to the TL core will be....

0946 Peterborough-Horsham

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/X31830/2018/02/26/advanced

They do appear on journey planners . However, they suggest that Travelcards (both inboundary and outboundary) are not valid on the leg between Finsbury Park and St Pancras International!

 

[jon0844]

GTR want dispatch to start 40 seconds before time, leading to RA at 20 seconds before time. (If this happens and the drivers play ball, trains will leave early all over the place. Granted it'd be by ten or so seconds, but that's not much consolation when passengers see their train leaving before time.)
Frankly, it's not about being 'quicker off the mark' - when the train is ready to go, it goes. If it comes in early enough it'll leave on time. No dispatcher stands there watching the time pass.

Passengers are getting quite angry over this, but they are being told why it is happening and once they've had it happen once they should know for next time.

Without posters at the smaller stations, I fully expect it to get picked up in the local (or national) press in due course when someone decides to make a big complaint, with the usual 'sad face' photo over having missed a flight/job interview/sales deal of the century/date because the train wasn't still there with the doors open on the minute.

Pitstop is vital to keeping the trains on time and allowing the class 9 trains to make their slot in the core. Everything is done to allow this to happen, which shows just how critical things are - and how quick things may go wrong because of delays at even the small shacks.

Older platform staff seem to dispatch the old way. Some drivers ignore platform staff that give CD at 30 seconds and RA at 40, pointing at their watches and then closing the doors when they feel ready, so it isn't just a problem for passengers to get used to!

 

[Fred26]

I just can't see a point where passengers will accept their train leaving early. Be it right or wrong, leaving early is leaving early. As you've pointed out, some staff won't oblige GTR in this idea, but why should they? As long as the train is out on time that's surely all that matters.

 

[Failed Unit]

I just can't see a point where passengers will accept their train leaving early. Be it right or wrong, leaving early is leaving early. As you've pointed out, some staff won't oblige GTR in this idea, but why should they? As long as the train is out on time that's surely all that matters.

I am with Fred on this one. If I miss a train by 20 seconds and I am in control I take it on the chin.

However if the railway is in control I am less happy. A group of passengers missed a connection when it was dispatched we while were approaching it. It stood with doors locked while we watched it go because the main line train was 8 minutes late. Delayed by 60 minutes as a result. The mainline crew cliam the had told control but why should GN hold at Stevenage. Remember this is a cross platform interchange!

More recently on great northern I have seen people miss trains because the carnets won’t operate the barriers and you need to attract the attention of platform staff.

If they want to lock doors and leave early change the public timetable.

 

[Fred26]

That's exactly my thought. Or just add more padding. Neither of which are good ideas, especially, but they get the same result.

 

[Failed Unit]

I notice the GN timetables still not uploaded. Is this delay because the planners are more busy doing emergency timetables for the potential snow events?

 

[neilm]

Is the timetable fully complete now? Bit concerned there is a 30 minute gap from 0750 to 0819 there are no trains on the BML (from South of Haywards Heath) to London Bridge (and North). In the consulation it showed the 0712 from Eastbourne running to London Bridge but this is not present.

 

[hozza94]

I am extremely disappointed in a lot of the timetables. Should probably try to do it on a route-by-route basis.

New Cross Gate
There is no way they couldn't path at least two trains an hour to stop there on their way to / from East Croydon. Now the convenient Horsham to London Bridge train stopping there giving those journey options is pulled out and they are lumbered with changing at Norwood onto the ELL there which will add to congestion on off-peak trains. Daft!

And there's a load more stupid stuff that just makes no bloody sense.

Exactly! Making people to change trains at a station where there is narrow platforms with no step-free access as well.
Also the ELL has twice as many trains at New Cross Gate than Norwood Junction
West Croydon Starter are already packed, can't see how is it going to cope

 

[Noggin The Nog]

Is the timetable fully complete now? Bit concerned there is a 30 minute gap from 0750 to 0819 there are no trains on the BML (from South of Haywards Heath) to London Bridge (and North). In the consulation it showed the 0712 from Eastbourne running to London Bridge but this is not present.

In the consultation it showed that train being removed. It appears it has actually gone, but until the journey planner is updated, I'm not sure how official that is.
You're right as per the timetables on RTT. Maybe there is an update coming?

 

[radamfi]

Is the timetable fully complete now? Bit concerned there is a 30 minute gap from 0750 to 0819 there are no trains on the BML (from South of Haywards Heath) to London Bridge (and North). In the consulation it showed the 0712 from Eastbourne running to London Bridge but this is not present.

There must still be missing trains. I cannot believe that Brighton to Cambridge is only every hour.

 

[TheDavibob]

There must still be missing trains. I cannot believe that Brighton to Cambridge is only every hour.

The plan is indeed for Brighton-Cambridge to initially be every hour, which is supported by various recent releases. I think the issue is pathing a second semifast north of London, which should be resolved by the December timetable change.

The glaring missing train is the GN Cambridge stopper, so there is definitely work in progress.

 

[radamfi]

The plan is indeed for Brighton-Cambridge to initially be every hour, which is supported by various recent releases. I think the issue is pathing a second semifast north of London, which should be resolved by the December timetable change.

The glaring missing train is the GN Cambridge stopper, so there is definitely work in progress.

But what about the service south of London? There surely can't only be three off-peak Thameslink trains per hour from Brighton to the core?

 

[notverydeep]

The glaring missing train is the GN Cambridge stopper, so there is definitely work in progress.

No services calling at Welwyn Garden City have so far been uploaded, so Moorgate trains and the peak Welwyn Garden City to King's Cross trains (that will later become Thameslink TL8 route) are also missing...

 

[Failed Unit]

No services calling at Welwyn Garden City have so far been uploaded, so Moorgate trains and the peak Welwyn Garden City to King's Cross trains (that will later become Thameslink TL8 route) are also missing...

Notice the notice on great northern website about timetables availability today is gone.

As I said earlier I suspect timetable planners working on emergency timetables is the priority today.