Great Northern and Thameslink May 18 service changes

[Lemeng]

I hope this is a reasonable place to post a quick question relating to the current pre-May situation. On Friday I was at London Bridge and saw Thameslink trains stopped with doors open on platforms 4 and 5. Naturally, I jumped on board one, just as far as Blackfriars, for the sake of the ride. Others were doing so too. Does anyone know whether there's any regularity or timetable for the trains which seem to be stopping at London Bridge now?

And as a Greenwich line user, responding more correctly to the May timetable change subject, I have never had any response to my responses to consultations or my emails to Southeastern on the subject of the nonsense which the Thameslink trains will make of the regular interval service to Cannon Street which will no longer exist, nor to the compounding of the current operational problems by layering Thameslink trains on top. I'm not looking forward to the rock hard seats either!

 

[radamfi]

I hope this is a reasonable place to post a quick question relating to the current pre-May situation. On Friday I was at London Bridge and saw Thameslink trains stopped with doors open on platforms 4 and 5. Naturally, I jumped on board one, just as far as Blackfriars, for the sake of the ride. Others were doing so too. Does anyone know whether there's any regularity or timetable for the trains which seem to be stopping at London Bridge now?

If you look at Real Time Trains, generally ones that say "VAR" in the left column

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/CTK?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

[Failed Unit]

I see GTR have changed thier tune as the bad weather is on. The timetables will now just be uploaded “soon”

 

[IKB]

South London centric post:
Digging a bit deeper into what's been uploaded on RTT so far, it seems some parts of south London are in for a rough deal (compared to what's currently provided, before any northern comrades shoot me down!).

Gone are the London Vic - Crystal Palace - Norwood Junc - West Croydon/Sutton trains. Platforms 1 & 2 at Crystal Palace on a standard weekday will only see the half hourly Beckenham Junction trains in each direction. The link between Crystal Palace and Norwood Junction is gone.

The result being that Crystal Palace (ignoring TFL), Gipsy Hill and West Norwood will be reduced to 4 tph to London Bridge (two Beckenhams via Tulse Hill and two Vic-Bridge rounders via Sydenham) and 2 tph to Victoria (the Bridge-Vic rounders). Any passengers for Norwood or West/East Croydon are going to have to change at Tulse Hill or Sydenham.

Things are even bleaker for Streatham Hill (which is a busy station). Currently around 8tph off-peak, in May reduced to 4tph both peak and off-peak (the half hourly Bridge-Vic rounders in each direction, which are not known for their reliability).

The abolition of the Vic to Caterham stopper means that Wandsworth Common & Balham will only get a half-hourly service to East Croydon (the Milton Keynes service) in the Down direction (although the E.Downs/Sutton service will give a further 2tph as far as Selhurst). Things are healthier in the Up direction with 4tph Epsom Downs/Sutton - Victoria, 2tph Bridge - Vic and 2tph Croydon - Milton Keynes.

Stations further down the line - Streatham Common, Norbury, Thornton Heath and Selhurst - as well as the Milton service will have a further 2 tph link to East Croydon with the new London Bridge - Tulse Hill - Caterham stopper.

I understand why it's been done (and is necessary) to provide a more robust timetable and more headway between trains etc. But it's not going to go down well.

I'm basing the above assumptions on what's uploaded to RTT. There may be further additions, amendments perhaps...?

 

[Ianno87]

But what about the service south of London? There surely can't only be three off-peak Thameslink trains per hour from Brighton to the core?

There's only two per hour today...

 

[Lemeng]

If you look at Real Time Trains, generally ones that say "VAR" in the left column

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/CTK?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

That's really helpful, thanks.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I hope this is a reasonable place to post a quick question relating to the current pre-May situation. On Friday I was at London Bridge and saw Thameslink trains stopped with doors open on platforms 4 and 5. Naturally, I jumped on board one, just as far as Blackfriars, for the sake of the ride. Others were doing so too. Does anyone know whether there's any regularity or timetable for the trains which seem to be stopping at London Bridge now?

And as a Greenwich line user, responding more correctly to the May timetable change subject, I have never had any response to my responses to consultations or my emails to Southeastern on the subject of the nonsense which the Thameslink trains will make of the regular interval service to Cannon Street which will no longer exist, nor to the compounding of the current operational problems by layering Thameslink trains on top. I'm not looking forward to the rock hard seats either!

Your not the only one, I've sent several emails to South Eastern and GTR about the Thameslink Rainham services, a number of us are concerned that the Medway is losing the semi fasts to what Kent County council deemed as areas of cultural and urban centres and interchanges, only KCC expressed concern at the odd stopping pattern and it was raised in their meeting.

I'm annoyed at the lack of response from SE & GTR considering they're changing services in some cases for the worst.

Cannon Street services will still run but at 4tph because Metropolitan Junction cannot be used to transfer SE stock back to Blackfriars anymore at the risk of delaying Thameslink services to the core, however from 2022, Sidcup and Hayes services will no longer serve Cannon Street, so therefore that should really mean the extra 2tph to Cannon Street via Greenwich, could and should be restored.

And yes, I'm not looking forward to sitting down on GTR's plastic seats for 1hr30mins from Rochester either, the Rainham service should be replacing the Victoria to Gillingham service and run this via E&C

 

[radamfi]

There's only two per hour today...

But only because the current works dictate that and it was fully expected that the long standing four trains per hour would resume when the works ended.

 

[Ianno87]

But only because the current works dictate that and it was fully expected that the long standing four trains per hour would resume when the works ended.

Will be four trains per hour again from December, I believe. If 2 per hour has been fine for 3 years, then going to 3tph then 4tph seems reasonable.

 

[radamfi]

If 2 per hour has been fine for 3 years

"Fine" is not the word I would use here.

 

[Ianno87]

"Fine" is not the word I would use here.

Why, what's been wrong with it? The peak service has never really been more than 2tph, and the reduced off peak service for the last 3 years, whilst slower than would be ideal, has coped with off peak demand (remembering that pre-2015 off peak 4 car working was routine - now almost all 12 cars). It's only Haywards and Brighton that lost out - bearing in mind they've had the2tph London Bridge service to back-fill the "lost" 2tph Thameslink.

3tph reinstated via London Bridge is an improvement on this, and 4tph isn't far beyond this.

 

[Bald Rick]

But what about the service south of London? There surely can't only be three off-peak Thameslink trains per hour from Brighton to the core?

Well there's been only two for the last 3 years, so that's a 50% improvement! (More come in December).

 

[ijmad]

Certainly not impressed with the new "Southern Metro" services in RTT for Brockley to Sydenham at the moment.

Currently, for example, Forest Hill gets a consistent 4tph service pattern both ways through most of the day from a mixture of West Croydons, Victorias and Caterhams.

In the May timetable uploaded so far, this changes to a mixture of Victorias and Coulsdon Towns, but since the Coulsdon Towns are off-peak only, we get 2tph between 16:00 and 18:00 and only 3tph between 18:00 and 19:00. Absolutely dire. These stations are already very heavily used and they're pulling services.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...28/1500-1900?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt

Maybe some extras will pop up, but I don't think so, as this peak time curtailing of the Coulsdon Town trains corresponds with the GTR Timetable consultation document.

Same situation up the road with the Thameslink services on the Catford Loop. Losing nearly 30% capacity during the high peak there (7tph drops to 5tph). No sign of any extra services popping up in the timetable so far. I don't think they will be.

 

[louis97]

Gone are the London Vic - Crystal Palace - Norwood Junc - West Croydon/Sutton trains. Platforms 1 & 2 at Crystal Palace on a standard weekday will only see the half hourly Beckenham Junction trains in each direction. The link between Crystal Palace and Norwood Junction is gone.

The result being that Crystal Palace (ignoring TFL), Gipsy Hill and West Norwood will be reduced to 4 tph to London Bridge (two Beckenhams via Tulse Hill and two Vic-Bridge rounders via Sydenham) and 2 tph to Victoria (the Bridge-Vic rounders). Any passengers for Norwood or West/East Croydon are going to have to change at Tulse Hill or Sydenham.

Things are even bleaker for Streatham Hill (which is a busy station). Currently around 8tph off-peak, in May reduced to 4tph both peak and off-peak (the half hourly Bridge-Vic rounders in each direction, which are not known for their reliability).

The Victoria-West Croydon via Crystal Palace services are just missing, will be xx06 and xx36 from Victoria and xx21 and xx51 from West Croydon.

 

[IKB]

The Victoria-West Croydon via Crystal Palace services are just missing, will be xx06 and xx36 from Victoria and xx21 and xx51 from West Croydon.

Thanks. I did wonder if something was missing. Was alarmed at the prospect places like Streatham Hill would go down to 4tph and no link from the Crystal Palace line to Norwood.

 

[Spamcan81]

Decided to try out the new Thameslink service from/to the GN on Monday. Reasonably impressed apart from those damn seats on the 700s. One thing that did puzzle me was the lengthy wait at London Bridge on the return, booked for 16 minutes. What is the reason for this please? Seems an inordinately long time on what is a through service.

 

[jon0844]

To fit the existing timetable?

 

[swt_passenger]

Decided to try out the new Thameslink service from/to the GN on Monday. Reasonably impressed apart from those damn seats on the 700s. One thing that did puzzle me was the lengthy wait at London Bridge on the return, booked for 16 minutes. What is the reason for this please? Seems an inordinately long time on what is a through service.

It's been explained many times in these forums already, but the timings at Blackfriars and East Croydon are still based on the diversion via Elephant and Castle etc. Trains taking the faster route through London Bridge have to wait time to fit back in to the standard pattern which allows for the longer route. At some future date it will all get sorted out.

 

[Spamcan81]

It's been explained many times in these forums already, but the timings at Blackfriars and East Croydon are still based on the diversion via Elephant and Castle etc. Trains taking the faster route through London Bridge have to wait time to fit back in to the standard pattern which allows for the longer route. At some future date it will all get sorted out.

Apologies four not having read every single thread in an attempt to find the answer. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[mrmartin]

Will harringay be served by the new Thameslink service at any point in the future?

 

[Silver Cobra]

Looks like the TL Peterborough-Horsham services are now in the system for May 21st onwards (here on RTT). One thing that interests me is that there's two one-hour gaps in the morning, with one being in the peak (between the 0624 and 0724, and 0823 and 0926 departures from Peterborough). I'm guessing there's still a few more services to add into the system, as I can't imagine they'd actually have a one hour gap between services like that, especially in the morning peak.

 

[Busaholic]

Thanks. I did wonder if something was missing. Was alarmed at the prospect places like Streatham Hill would go down to 4tph and no link from the Crystal Palace line to Norwood.

My thought, as someone who hasn't lived in (south) London for some while, was initially; I go and stay with my sister in West Dulwich, who lived there for years, and endure the 2 tph Victoria service, which only goes to 4 tph just before she moves to Streatham, nearest station Streatham Hill, and now that train service's getting halved (incidentally, at much the same time as the direct bus service to Marble Arch gets scrapped, but that's another story). Glad the train part is not true, anyway.

 

[Fred26]

Will harringay be served by the new Thameslink service at any point in the future?

Long-term I believe that plan is for Harringay and Hornsey to be served by Hertford trains only, all running into Moorgate. The Welwyn services are supposed to run through the core.
I'm sure someone will correct me in a minute though...

 

[class387]

Long-term I believe that plan is for Harringay and Hornsey to be served by Hertford trains only, all running into Moorgate. The Welwyn services are supposed to run through the core.
I'm sure someone will correct me in a minute though...

Only the peak time Welwyn to Kings Cross trains will run into the core, which don't call there anyway. However two of the planned four Moorgate to Welwyn trains will skip Hornsey/Harringay.

 

[collexions]

As someone who works on the Thameslink Programme and the wider industry, can I ask why all the focus on Real Time Trains ''uploads'? The May 2018 timetable isn't established in its final draft until 14/03/18?

 

[ijmad]

As someone who works on the Thameslink Programme and the wider industry, can I ask why all the focus on Real Time Trains ''uploads'? The May 2018 timetable isn't established in its final draft until 14/03/18?

Given people on Twitter have spent the last month or so attempting to extra a date out of Thameslink for when the new timetables are published, good to know, finally. All they're saying is "real soon now" over and over.

 

[notverydeep]

As someone who works on the Thameslink Programme and the wider industry, can I ask why all the focus on Real Time Trains ''uploads'? The May 2018 timetable isn't established in its final draft until 14/03/18?

I suspect the interest has been generated by the various websites related to it (Transforming Rail / Rail 2020 etc.) and individuals connected with it (e.g. GTR staff at Meet the Manager sessions and posters to this thread who give every impression of being GTR employees) indicating that the May 2018 timetable would be made available on 25th February - presumably even if not quite finalised. The appearance of some (though clearly not all) of the trains on Real Time Trains for dates after the May timetable dates reinforced this expectation.

Given that many other operators at least try to work to a 90 day reservations window (clearly not applicable in the case of GTR) for which they presumably need a fairly final timetable, interest in what the timetable holds for us GTR passengers / Railway Industry colleagues in what is the first part of a major change is to be expected...

 

[Failed Unit]

I suspect the interest has been generated by the various websites related to it (Transforming Rail / Rail 2020 etc.) and individuals connected with it (e.g. GTR staff at Meet the Manager sessions and posters to this thread who give every impression of being GTR employees) indicating that the May 2018 timetable would be made available on 25th February - presumably even if not quite finalised. The appearance of some (though clearly not all) of the trains on Real Time Trains for dates after the May timetable dates reinforced this expectation.

Given that many other operators at least try to work to a 90 day reservations window (clearly not applicable in the case of GTR) for which they presumably need a fairly final timetable, interest in what the timetable holds for us GTR passengers / Railway Industry colleagues in what is the first part of a major change is to be expected...

The Great Northern Website had on its front page upto Sunday that the new timetable would be available in journey planners from the 25th February. So you would expect as it came from the horse mouth to be correct. I thought the delay was because of the snow rather.

It is getting sad now, as you can't believe anything that Great Northern say any more. Why publish a date when they are not going to keep it? It is almost like them telling this timetable will provide more seats than ever before (when they only really mean off-peak)

 

[IKB]

As someone who works on the Thameslink Programme and the wider industry, can I ask why all the focus on Real Time Trains ''uploads'? The May 2018 timetable isn't established in its final draft until 14/03/18?

Because, in an information vacuum, RTT gives an advance look of broad shape of what's planned.

 

[neilm]

As someone who works on the Thameslink Programme and the wider industry, can I ask why all the focus on Real Time Trains ''uploads'? The May 2018 timetable isn't established in its final draft until 14/03/18?

Please could you tell GTR that, they have been replying to passengers earlier today that this was the final timetable.

Complete shambles.