Great Northern - Class 321 vs Class 365

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by crazystripe, 1 Jun 2015.

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  1. crazystripe

    crazystripe Member

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    I've recently started a daily commute from Sandy to Finsbury Park (then onwards to Moorgate). The train I would normally catch is the 7.02am from Sandy, which is the 6.32am from Peterborough.

    Is there any way of finding out which unit is allocated to that service each day? The realtimetrains website always suggests it's a 365, but more often than not, it turns out to be a 321.

    The only reason I'm asking is that the 321 seems to be incapable of keeping to the timetable, and always end up late by the time they reach London... the 365 has no such trouble.

    Thanks.
     
  2. berneyarms

    berneyarms Established Member

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    Realtimetrains shows the timing type, not what is rostered for each service.
     
  3. 03_179

    03_179 Member

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    1P45 06:32 PBO-KGX

    FLEET :365/5

    It is booked as a 365 turn from the GN CWN.

    Subject to availability.
     
  4. crazystripe

    crazystripe Member

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    Thanks for the input.

    Is there any specific reason for the non-availability of a 365 in recent weeks on most days (I'd say the service has used a 365 only once or twice a week, recently)? Is it relating to the "refresh" programme for that fleet?
     
  5. 03_179

    03_179 Member

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    It is booked as a 365. and most diagram do run as booked.

    ALL diagrams are interchangeable.

    i.e. 05:51 SRS-BDM is booked as 2x 319 but for the past two weeks it have been 2x 377.
     
  6. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    Wouldn't entirely agree that everything is interchangeable on the GN side. None of the three classes, 317 321 and 365 can work together in normal service (though I'm not sure why 317s and 321s couldn't work together in service with little or no modification if required, whatever the reason it's never happened since the 321s arrived).

    For starters, you have three morning peak stopping trains from Cambridge to King's Cross which *must* be formed of 2x317, as these trains are the only ones fitted with door deselect for stopping at Foxton, Shepreth and Meldreth. If 2x317s cannot be provided, the train must non-stop these stations, or be formed of a 4-car train only.

    Then you have many diagrams which join other diagrams at various times in the day. Splitting and joining is very common particularly at King's Cross and Cambridge. Indeed, as many as most Kings Lynn services nowadays detache or attach 1 or 2 units at Cambridge. You can't just sub a 321 in place of a 365 without the wider implications being considered - if a 321 turns up at King's Cross on a 365 diagram timetabled to join another 365, there will be a problem, and some form of adjustment will be required.

    Finally, there seems to be a policy of keeping the Kings Lynn services worked by 365s as far as possible. There are no 317s and 321s booked to run beyond Cambridge, although they regularly turn up on substitutions as far as Ely. Generally 317s only reach Kings Lynn in emergency. I'm not even sure if Kings Lynn drivers sign 317s or (more so) 321s?

    Regarding the OP's question, there is currently a long-term shortage of 365s due to the refresh programme. The 365 fleet is tightly diagrammed even with all 40 units available, the 317s and 321s are less intensively used, with 2x317s and 1x321 booked spare, and many diagrams involving little work. The entire 321 fleet stables between the peaks. There are a number of diagrams which are "favourite" for subs because they don't divide and join (avoiding the complications described above), and in some cases start and finish at Hornsey.

    I haven't got the diagrams to hand, but it seems your service is one of the diagrams which is ripe for subbing if required. Normally it seems to rotate around so that different diagrams get subbed each day, but you will find that if you use one of those diagrams then it's likely you will get 317s or 321s probably at least one a week for the foreseeable future. Things will improve once the 365 refresh is complete, of if the timetable/diagrams change so that your service becomes a diagram which can't easily be subbed.

    I should add that the subbing can be quite complex. For example, if they are one 365 short and have only one available spare 317 (so can't make an 8-car), they might choose to put 1x365 on the all-day 1x321 diagram, releasing 1x321 which along with the spare 321 can be subbed for 2x365. Things really are that tight.

    FCC made moves to hire 2x317/7 precisely for the reason that they knew they were going to be down on 365s, however for some reason it was decided that they could handle things without. Generally this has proven to be correct, although it does leave them vulnerable if more than one or two units are unavailable for any reason.
     
    Last edited: 1 Jun 2015
  7. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

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    That train is a booked 8 car 377 not a 319 any more.
     
  8. whoosh

    whoosh Member

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    Kings Lynn drivers do sign 317s, and 321s.

    And 313s!
     
  9. notadriver

    notadriver Established Member

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    A layman might ask why the 321 has problems keeping up as both types can do 100 mph.
     
  10. whoosh

    whoosh Member

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    They are sluggish, even compared to 317s. Which is odd as they supposedly have the same motors. Perhaps the gearing is different.
     
  11. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    Thanks for that. As a matter of interest, how often does a Kings Lynn driver get to touch a 321?
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    From GPS measurements, I've tended to find that 317s and 321s have more-or-less the same profile, although the 317 normally has the slight edge. Differs between units as well, at the higher end of the speed range there appears to quite a bit of difference between individual units.

    On leaving Finsbury Park from a stand, generally a 365 can reach 100 mph by New Barnet. By comparison a 317 or 321 is unlikely to be much above 80 mph by Potters Bar, and won't generally reach 100 mph until somewhere around Welham Green.

    I'm sure anyone who actually drives over this route can be more specific.
     
    Last edited: 2 Jun 2015
  12. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    Kings Lynn are mostly 365 work (365s are the only trains allowed past Ely except in extreme circumstances as the powerful kings Lynn rail users group dosnt like 317or321.

    Lynn drivers work a lot of stoppers from Cambridge and London which are often 317/321. They have very limited 313 work and will most likely loose 313/Moorgate work in December.

    365s have more motors than 317/321 so certainly take off and reach 100 far earlier. Finsbury Park-potters bar is uphill and you won't get more than about 85 until potters bar in a 317/321. Even on full power you loose speed-if I hit Wood Green tunnel at 90mph with full power applied I'll be doing 85 by Barnet. They don't have the power or aerodynamics of a 365.

    As for why they are subbed on the Peterborough route-as has been said 365s are going through a refresh so they have missing units being subbed.

    317&321 can run together as they are at the moment. FCC did consider it and if it is ever needed it will be done but currently there is no need and so it's simpler to keep units within their own class. 365s can run with 317/321 but not in service. Very common sight to see a 365 in multiple with 317/321/319 moving around Hornsey depot and a few moves to ilford for 365 refreshes have been a 365 dead hauled by a 317.
     
  13. notadriver

    notadriver Established Member

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    On paper the 321 has approx about 1400 hp available vs about 1650 hp for the 365. Thats not enough to account for the difference in itself. But AC motors which the 365 has allow full power over the whole speed range whereas DC motors tends to fall off at higher speeds.
     
  14. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    A 317/321 will out accelerate a 365 from a stand but only until about 30/40mph.
     
  15. notadriver

    notadriver Established Member

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    That makes perfect sense. A DC motor can exceed its normal rated output during acceleration after which power tails off. AC motors tend to pick up more gradually but power is maintained right up to top speed.
     
  16. whoosh

    whoosh Member

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    Kings Lynn have 13 turns of duty. One has a Class 321.. And there is a Fridays Only turn with one too (although I the train runs all week).
     
    Last edited: 2 Jun 2015
  17. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    That doesn't include cross covering other depots work though which is why they sign 321&313 really.

    Plus if you sign 316 you don't need much work on 321.
     
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