Great Northern Class 700 diagrams?

[sefton]

7.18 700 from St Neots failed to stop this morning although the train was running.

Apparently driver gave announcement it was due to no staff at St Neots, GNR Twitter team denying this and claiming a fault on the train.

However tannoy announcements saying 7.41 (a 12 car 365) would also fail to stop and to catch 7.30 (8 car 387).

 

[bILLOO]

Are all GN drivers going to be trained on the 700’s?

Possibly not but I don’t know for sure.

 

[Hadders]

7.18 700 from St Neots failed to stop this morning although the train was running.

Apparently driver gave announcement it was due to no staff at St Neots, GNR Twitter team denying this and claiming a fault on the train.

However tannoy announcements saying 7.41 (a 12 car 365) would also fail to stop and to catch 7.30 (8 car 387).

That would explain why there were a few seats on the 0736 from Stevenage then. I almost got one but ended up propped against a luggage rack.

That’s 2 days on the trot for St Neots passengers - Friday’s service cancelled and today’s failed to stop.

Not good...

 

[Fred26]

There was only one member of staff, two are needed.

 

[adamedwards]

Any news on the next services to be taken over? Or is this it until the December timetable change? Thameslink seemed to add new services every 2 weeks.

 

[sefton]

There was only one member of staff, two are needed.

Still disappointing GNR were incorrectly reporting the failure to stop as a fault on the train and not a staffing issue.

Also do these trains not have onboard cameras, so why do they still need platform staff?

 

[bramling]

Still disappointing GNR were incorrectly reporting the failure to stop as a fault on the train and not a staffing issue.

Also do these trains not have onboard cameras, so why do they still need platform staff?

Bodyside cameras don't always work... it's quite common for GN's 387s to have to skip stations because the bodysides are out and there aren't staff available.

 

[sefton]

Bodyside cameras don't always work... it's quite common for GN's 387s to have to skip stations because the bodysides are out and there aren't staff available.

So it must have been a double failure for GNR this morning; no staff to dispatch and no working cameras.

The introduction of these new trains is not going well.

 

[bramling]

So it must have been a double failure for GNR this morning; no staff to dispatch and no working cameras.

The introduction of these new trains is not going well.

To be fair to the undesiros, the outcome would presumably have been the same were the service formed of 365s. Nonetheless, it's still a GTR messup.

 

[sefton]

To be fair to the undesiros, the outcome would presumably have been the same were the service formed of 365s. Nonetheless, it's still a GTR messup.

Apparently the following 12 car 365 did stop.

So unless the missing staff member just turned up, the problem was with the 700.

 

[jon0844]

Apparently the following 12 car 365 did stop.

So unless the missing staff member just turned up, the problem was with the 700.

Perhaps the onboard DOO wasn't working and there wasn't a second dispatcher, but by the time of the next one there was? It's not uncommon for a dispatcher from another station to board, travel on the service to an unstaffed station, alight, dispatch and then take another train back.

 

[jon0844]

Deleted (duplicate)

 

[sefton]

Perhaps the onboard DOO wasn't working and there wasn't a second dispatcher, but by the time of the next one there was? It's not uncommon for a dispatcher from another station to board, travel on the service to an unstaffed station, alight, dispatch and then take another train back.

I agree it could have been any of things, but as usual GNR's communication failed and they were not telling customers anything sensible.

However back to the 700s, it isn't very good the onboard systems are failing in the second week of service.

 

[jon0844]

387s are doing it a fair bit after quite some time in service.

 

[Skimble19]

387s are still very regularly having DOO camera failures. Most passengers won’t notice as staffed stations will get a call and be asked to dispatch them. The passengers of Baldock, Ashwell and Morden etc. have certainly noticed though!

Apparently the following 12 car 365 did stop.

So unless the missing staff member just turned up, the problem was with the 700.

That’ll be because one person can dispatch a 12 car 365 (or 387) using degraded dispatch.. no such method exists for 700s so if any staff are missing and there’s not enough staff there to dispatch then 700s won’t stop, even though all other stock could.

 

[jon0844]

387s are still very regularly having DOO camera failures. Most passengers won’t notice as staffed stations will get a call and be asked to dispatch them. The passengers of Baldock, Ashwell and Morden etc. have certainly noticed though!

That’ll be because one person can dispatch a 12 car 365 (or 387) using degraded dispatch.. no such method exists for 700s so if any staff are missing and there’s not enough staff there to dispatch then 700s won’t stop, even though all other stock could.

I assume you lock out doors manually on a 365 (and on any stock if, say, there's fog and you can't see the whole train), so do the 700s not have external controls to facilitate this? Or is there another reason?

 

[Skimble19]

I assume you lock out doors manually on a 365 (and on any stock if, say, there's fog and you can't see the whole train), so do the 700s not have external controls to facilitate this? Or is there another reason?

That’s correct, with 365s and 387s you can lock out as many or as few carriages as required (often the rear 4 will suffice for a 12 car but some stations may require more due to platform layouts), the 700s have no external controls and there is no way to lock off carriages from the outside, as such they are not allowed to stop and SDC must be informed as early as possible to make sure they don’t.

The lack of external door controls also makes the terminating process “interesting”

 

[causton]

It's not uncommon for a dispatcher from another station to board, travel on the service to an unstaffed station, alight, dispatch and then take another train back.

Christ, if they tried to get anyone to do anything like that on our line they would have a field day!

 

[Dunnyrail]

Doutfull if the units will still be about plus/or the Staff availablility to dig them out of the Nene. The Railway these days does not work on principles of Spare Kit being around just in case. New Stock is meant to work straight out of the Box. We all know it does not but the Millions spent just assume that it will. Tis in many rspects a sad Railway the John Major bequeathed us on Privatisation, true there are many dedicated Guys and Gals doing their level best but while the show is being run by the Department of Roads oops Transport things will always be somewhat screwed up.
JonD

 

[Dunnyrail]

I’d have thought the stock that forms the service would stable overnight in the sidings at Peterborough. Couldn’t they use a 365 from the same sidings (i.e the train that would’ve operated the service last week?)

Post above tries to answer that, but also note the the 356's etc stable at the Nene Sidings on the Down Side just before Peterborough Station. The 700's in the New Sidings on the Up Side to the North of the Station. Two distinctly different places with their own issues of getting Trains into Service, the Nene being particularly complex.
JonD

 

[D365]

What are the issues you describe with getting a Class 700 into service at Peterborough, as opposed to a 365 or 387 from the older sidings adjacent to the river? Aside from the different platform connections.

 

[Dunnyrail]

What are the issues you describe with getting a Class 700 into service at Peterborough, as opposed to a 365 or 387 from the older sidings adjacent to the river? Aside from the different platform connections.

700's from the Up Side should be pretty simple with direct access to the Platforms on the Up side.

From the Nene it is a different issue altogether. Stock needs to exit the Sidings run through the Station on the Down Side to North, (Driver change ends?) then set back across the Main Lines to access the Up Platforms. I am sure a Driver could describe this process in more detail. I have only observed it in the Morning whilst waiting for early trains going North.

Fact is though that Stock from the Nene to form Up Services to London do have the capability to screw the job up at Peterborough if things go wrong.
JonD

 

[arb]

387s are still very regularly having DOO camera failures. Most passengers won’t notice as staffed stations will get a call and be asked to dispatch them. The passengers of Baldock, Ashwell and Morden etc. have certainly noticed though!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the older 365s use platform mirrors for dispatch at these stations? Presumably the camera-on-train solution must have some significant advantages over mirrors for it to still be being used despite their reliabilty causing the regular skips of unstaffed stations that you mention. Can anybody enlighten me with a short summary of what those advantages are? Why can't 387s fall back to using the mirrors when the cameras break?

 

[WeGoAgain]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the older 365s use platform mirrors for dispatch at these stations? Presumably the camera-on-train solution must have some significant advantages over mirrors for it to still be being used despite their reliabilty causing the regular skips of unstaffed stations that you mention. Can anybody enlighten me with a short summary of what those advantages are? Why can't 387s fall back to using the mirrors when the cameras break?

The (sideways) 'letter box' view from the Cab on the 387 is not conducive to viewing the whole length of a Train (in particular for off side dispatch). As for Mirrors in general, some of them really aren't that great, hence station staff assisting at some stations on the GN route.

 

[Dunnyrail]

The (sideways) 'letter box' view from the Cab on the 387 is not conducive to viewing the whole length of a Train (in particular for off side dispatch). As for Mirrors in general, some of them really aren't that great, hence station staff assisting at some stations on the GN route.

St.Neots has Platform Cameras. But if an Up 12 car 365 is in the Train despatch staff are used.
JonD

 

[Hadders]

Generally platform monitors are used for 365s if they are 4 or 8 car. There are still mirrors at some stations though. For example at Knebworth there are monitors on the slow platforms (where the vast majority of services call) and mirrors on the occasionally used fast line platforms.

I believe 12-car 365s have to be manually dispatched. At Stevenage there are no monitors or mirrors, everything is manually dispatched although there are (usually covered up) signs for use when the platform is unmanned giving instructions to drivers on what to do. I assume this is the 'degraded dispatch' referred to earlier.

I do wonder if there are agreed 'degraded dispatch' procedures for 700s and 387s, whether it has been overlooked or if agreement with the unions couldn't be reached.

 

[jon0844]

Generally platform monitors are used for 365s if they are 4 or 8 car. There are still mirrors at some stations though. For example at Knebworth there are monitors on the slow platforms (where the vast majority of services call) and mirrors on the occasionally used fast line platforms.

I believe 12-car 365s have to be manually dispatched. At Stevenage there are no monitors or mirrors, everything is manually dispatched although there are (usually covered up) signs for use when the platform is unmanned giving instructions to drivers on what to do. I assume this is the 'degraded dispatch' referred to earlier.

I do wonder if there are agreed 'degraded dispatch' procedures for 700s and 387s, whether it has been overlooked or if agreement with the unions couldn't be reached.

Knebworth has dispatch staff hours of darkness and trains will use the fast platforms at random times, and after 2330 until approx 0700 most trains will use them. In the evening, very few do - but the random nature of last second changes means it can happen all day. In the daytime it's not a problem for the driver, but the gates don't auto close so a train stopping there results in gates being left open, which then reduces their effectiveness for reducing the suicide risk. [FWIW the gates don't auto close at other ECML stations, even though I was told the cost difference was not significant - but that's for another thread perhaps].

 

[adamedwards]

Any additional diagrams next week? Or just the Peterboroughs?

 

[Fred26]

The RA boards at Stevenage, as referred to above, are hardly ever used. Literally years between usage. For RA boards that are used more commonly, try Welwyn Garden City or Hertford North. Royston occasionally too.
Degraded dispatch could refer to the use of RA boards, but more commonly refers to dispatchers locking coach by coach and then dispatching to the driver. This isn't physically possible with the 700s.

 

[Hadders]

The RA boards at Stevenage, as referred to above, are hardly ever used. Literally years between usage. For RA boards that are used more commonly, try Welwyn Garden City or Hertford North. Royston occasionally too.
Degraded dispatch could refer to the use of RA boards, but more commonly refers to dispatchers locking coach by coach and then dispatching to the driver. This isn't physically possible with the 700s.

I'm not on about the CD/RA indicators. I'm not sure they're used any longer (I'll have a check). Attached is the sign I referred to in my earlier post. I assume this a degraded dispatch?